whats the use?

[kamrr4437]

Not to mention that most everyone can fire FACTORY hornady ammo and get awesome results as well without ever loading a round. Mine shoots consistent groups less than half an inch with factory hornady ammo.

[Tedward]

LR1955,
Thanks for clarifying the Button Cut Barrels. I wasn't trying to put them down, that is what I have right now, AR-Stoner 24" 5R, and am very happy, the rifle shoots better then I do. I discussed the 5R Barrels with Quality Arms a year or more ago and he also said many top contenders are using the 5R or have been. I just know these guys here on the forum are hung up on Rifle Point Cut and hand lapped barrels. Half of them want sub MOA and the barrel can probably do it but it takes the guy behind the trigger to make it happen.

Also I was sort of offering to take those bad barrels off there hands if they are dissatisfied. At a discount

As for your round count info, thanks, that is also what I wanted to hear. Actual Grendel long term users facts.

[Nukes]

after all i have read from this site i see that its very necessary to develope a load for your gun using ladder testing and doing such with the multiple of bullets and powders that youmight want to use for your particular rifle and barrel. its literally several hundreds and hundreds of fired rounds to find that just right load and bullet. but i also see that these barrels only shoot the finest for the first few hundred rounds at best and then will fall off as to their use for really great accuracy. so whats the use? by the time you get the best load and bullet for your gun its life is gone,,,,,,,,,,,,

http://istandwithphil.com/

that bug.

"[T]he multiple of bullets and powders that you might want to use" is the heart of the problem. Indeed, if one runs the full matrix of available powders and projectiles using the Audette style ladder testing, much of the useful barrel life is... um... shot.

I decided I would not test every VLD in the Berger catalogue against every other premium bullet manufacturer at every seating depth, neck tension, powder, and charge. Suddenly simplified! "What is the consensus?" I asked. And the answer "set me free."

Powder selection was further simplified by the short list of relatively temperature insensitive powders.

Next, I ran across this critique and alternative to the Audette ladders:

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/ocw-vs-ladder/4529811360

Further simplified. 12-15 rounds for a single powder/projectile combination, instead of 100.

Life is much shorter than young men think. Enjoy a good life. Don't give yourself unnecessary agony for agony will come in its own time. Barrels are replaceable. The hours of our lives are not.

[NightForce]

The round that I found that erodes the throat the quickest is the .220 Swift and the 6.5 Grendel pales in comparison...

The 220 Swift launches the bullet at nearly 4000 fps. The large case capacity vs the small diameter bullet results in quick throat erosion and short barrel life. Even at this the average barrel life for the 220 Swift is about 2000 rounds....

[NugginFutz]

If there is a magic number when a barrel goes South, that would be nice to know. Maybe some of the long time shooter have that info and will share it.

Ted - I have yet to see a barrel with an expiration date etched into it, so I don't think you'll hear of one, any time soon. (Except for general estimates.)

Obviously, barrel life depends on several factors, including powder selection, charge weight, muzzle velocity and, quite significantly, shooting habits. In an irrational act of enthusiasm, I curtailed the barrel life of a wonderful Remington 700, in .243 win, by shooting too many consecutive rounds without any cool down time. I was also running it near max charge, and velocities were high. The bore scope revealed a very ugly picture, complete with bits of throat missing. (I'd fallen victim to a target rich prairie dog colony, where the little buggers just weren't staying down.) This barrel only survived 950 rounds, and I am still mortified, over the event.

ETA: Come to think of it, it may not be a bad idea for someone to come up with some heat sensitive strips to stick to the side of the barrel. Sort of like those old chemical thermometers that changed color, with a "Green/Yellow/Red" indication. On the other hand, it sounds like a solution in search of a problem. (Just lay a hand on the barrel for free.)

[explorecaves]

ETA: Come to think of it, it may not be a bad idea for someone to come up with some heat sensitive strips to stick to the side of the barrel. Sort of like those old chemical thermometers that changed color, with a "Green/Yellow/Red" indication. On the other hand, it sounds like a solution in search of a problem. (Just lay a hand on the barrel for free.)

How about some temperature controlled TE coolers?

[NugginFutz]

Heh - the challenge there would be achieving even heat transfer with the barrel or, I suspect, you would make things interesting/worse. Or, moving to the land of the ludicrous, developing a Water Jacket system for your AR, and turning it into a 2 man gun emplacement.

[explorecaves]

Heh - the challenge there would be achieving even heat transfer with the barrel or, I suspect, you would make things interesting/worse. Or, moving to the land of the ludicrous, developing a Water Jacket system for your AR, and turning it into a 2 man gun emplacement.

I like the way you think…. use up that empty volume under the hand guard for water cooling…. LOL

[maverick5582]

There is one aspect of owning rifles that I have yet to explore and that is re-boring of rifle barrels. I have some old barrels that I keep after barrel changes and I would love to have them re-bored to a larger caliber. But, the expense so far has precluded that option from me.

I have been told that an old barrel that has over a thousand rounds through it makes a good candidate for cut rifling because it has been "stress-relieved". from all the firings.

Anyone had success with re-boring to a larger caliber?

[stanprophet]

The round that I found that erodes the throat the quickest is the .220 Swift and the 6.5 Grendel pales in comparison...

The 220 Swift launches the bullet at nearly 4000 fps. The large case capacity vs the small diameter bullet results in quick throat erosion and short barrel life. Even at this the average barrel life for the 220 Swift is about 2000 rounds....

Not sure how that would compare with the 264 Winchester Magnum, I know they have some erosion issues as well. I have not had a chance to have the one we got last year checked. But the bore and rifle was beautiful.

[JASmith]

I showed the Grendel reloading handbooks to someone I know at a local gun shop. We got into a conversation about barrel life.

The question I carried out of the discussion was: "Has anyone used a bore scope at the start of the barrel life and intermediate points through to the end of life while tracking the change of group size?"

A corollary: "How many of us have shot out a Grendel barrel?" The definition of shot out might be group size grows to twice the group size at the end of break-in.

[NugginFutz]

I showed the Grendel reloading handbooks to someone I know at a local gun shop. We got into a conversation about barrel life.

The question I carried out of the discussion was: "Has anyone used a bore scope at the start of the barrel life and intermediate points through to the end of life while tracking the change of group size?"

A corollary: "How many of us have shot out a Grendel barrel?" The definition of shot out might be group size grows to twice the group size at the end of break-in.

Regrettably, the only time I've felt compelled to look down the tube with a bore scope was after serious damage had already been done, and no interim peeks. (Not having a bore scope of my own means a two hour round trip.)

For your corollary to be meaningful, barrel type and load would need to be annotated, as well as the expected round count. Factory ammo would likely be the "Gold Standard", whereas the hand loaders will need to be divided into separate categories.

I say this, because the aforementioned DOA barrel (a .243 Win) succumbed to a mere 950 rounds of hand loads, compounded by a couple of very hostile shooting sessions where I shot the poor thing too hot. (They aren't kidding when they say an education is expensive.) This barrel would be considered anomalous, in a sample of similar barrels that have been shot out.

So, while intrigued with the prospect of gathering such information, I would like to see it compiled in a meaningful, correlated way.

[JASmith]

Nuggin,

Excellent points.

I would also add to that the chamber spec.

Yes, a blanket statement of barrel life is meaningless unless at least a general statement of use is included.

This is especially true when someone states a cartridge with a 20% smaller bore capacity than either the .308 Winchester or .223 Remington has a barrel life about the same as a hot-loaded .260 Remington. My first thought was skepticism, but your comments suggest that an alternative explanation exists.

I will need to query about the type of shooting the folks did in addition to the loads they used. There is a hint that they are into tactical shooting and may have gotten into a few sessions of hot and heavy firing where the barrels came close to glowing.

Frankly, as I think about it, the whole barrel doesn't have to e cherry red for damage to be done to the throat where things are toastiest. All it would take is a few sessions of emptying a mag as fast as one can pull the trigger to thoroughly scorch the throat.

[hydrotech]

Too our military vets who know something about rifles...Hows the throat on an M4 or M16 after several practice excursions of emptying magazines fast? do they have throat damage? I don't know but I would think melonite barrels /throats civilians use are harder than mil spec....of course...it may be that throat erosion doesn't matter on M4 or m16 because targets are bigger and accuracy not as important as say hitting prarie dogs or little blaze orange stickers. are the m4's and m16's in our armorys beaten up and wore out? shot out barrels?

[stokesrj]

I have a bore scope, and have watched several of my .223 service rifle barrels wear throgh their entire life cycle. I've seen the direct results of throat errosion on long range accuracy degredation. I've also restored, temporarily, the accuracy by polishing the throat with JB bore paste. With Wilson button rifle barrels I seem to be getting 2-3 thousand rounds of good accuracy life and with Kreiger cut rifle barrels I've been getting 4-5 thousand rounds of good accuracy life. I have not worn out a Grendel barrel yet so I can't say how long they last but it is greater than 4,500 rounds, which is the most I put on one of my Satern barrels. My Krieger barrel has 1,700 rounds and looks nearly new, my Satern Ultralight has so few rounds it is like new. My judgement is that a 6.5 Grendel lasts significantly longer than a .223 and that is a very good place to be.
Bob