LRRPF52's masterpiece!

[montana]

http://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us/FOIA/listing-of-FFLs

[Ridgerider]

To paint or tape a registered firearm, no 07 FFL is needed, since a ruling in 2009 by the ATF addressed this point. It does, however, establish the requirement for an 01 FFL for anyone doing painting, etc, as a business.

BATF ruling regarding painting, engraving, etc.

Scanned version (emphasis is mine):

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington. DC 20226

18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(I)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED


Any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes
a firearm's appearance, by camouflaging a firearm by painting, dipping, or applying tape,
or by engraving the external surface of a firearm, does not need to be licensed as a
manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person who is licensed as a
dealer/gunsmith, and who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling
does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person
who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this
ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control
Act.

ATF Rule 2009-1

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries
from Federally licensed manufacturers and dealers/gunsmiths seeking clarification as to
whether camouflaging firearms, or cutting designs into firearms by engraving, constitute
manufacturing activities that require a manufacturer's license.

Camouflaging refers to a patterned treatment using a variety of different colors that enables
a firearm to blend into a particular outdoor environment. This typically involves painting,
dipping, or applying a tape over the firearm's wood and/or metal parts.
Engraving firearms is a process in which a decorative pattern is placed on the external
metal of a firearm primarily for ornamental purposes. The engraving can be cut by hand or
machine, or pressed into the metal. There are other engraving techniques that cut designs
into firearms, such as checkering or scalloping.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (V.S.C.), Chapter 44,
provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing,
or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so
from the Attorney General. A "firearm" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 92 I (a)(3) to include any
weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted

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to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such
weapon. The term "manufacturer" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(IO) and 27 CFR 478.11
as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for
purposes of sale or distribution. The term "dealer," which includes a gunsmith, is defined
by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(II) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include any person engaged in the business
of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, or repairing firearms or making or fitting special
barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms.

In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF's predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms
"manufacturer" and "dealer" for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal
Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer
could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not
engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for
purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer's license. Since then, ATF has
similarly and consistently interpreted the term "manufacturer" under the GCA to mean any
person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or
otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.

Performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging, that primarily adds to or
changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Unlike
manufacturing processes that primarily enhance a firearm's durability, camouflaging is
primarily cosmetic. Likewise, external engravings are cosmetic in nature and primarily
affect only the appearance of a firearm.

Held, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or
changes a firearm's appearance by camouflaging the firearm by painting, dipping, or
applying tape does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to
or changes a firearm's appearance by engraving the external surface of the firearm does not
need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and
who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be
licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or

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engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes
a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.

Its this last part that being a gun smith requires you to be a 07 FFL
The word is profit if you are working on peoples guns for profit and if people are sending guns through the mail to you to work on then you need a FFL.
So the question now is who here has an FFL I know I do so who else. Lets discourage people from breaking the law as it will protect us all.

[NugginFutz]

Its this last part that being a gun smith requires you to be a 07 FFL
The word is profit if you are working on peoples guns for profit and if people are sending guns through the mail to you to work on then you need a FFL.
So the question now is who here has an FFL I know I do so who else. Lets discourage people from breaking the law as it will protect us all.

I'm not quite sure where you connected four separate rulings into one. Each stands on its own merit. Gunsmithing is not the same as painting. Are you trying to say that Cerakoting is the domain of a Gunsmith and, as such, requires an 07 FFL?

[montana]

According to the ATF web site you need a type 01 FFL, for a gun smith and a type 07 FFL for a manufacturer. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[Ridgerider]

The reason I say its a 7 is when I started my business I was refurbishing old Lee Enfield rifles and the local ATF agent informed me although it was gunsmithing I would require a class 7 FFL as I was improving the gun therefore it was manufacturing. I quoted the above ruling and was told as soon as I remove any part from the gun that was manufacturing. Just saying and I have learnt not to question the ATF as you will loose.

[Ridgerider]

According to the ATF web site you need a type 01 FFL, for a gun smith and a type 07 FFL for a manufacturer. If I'm wrong please correct me.

The point is you still need a FFL whether it be an 01 or 07 to work on any gun for profit and to receive any gun through the mail.

[LRRPF52]

The ATF has made these "rulings" without any judicial oversight. They are not part of the legislative branch, and they have their own court system. If they want to steal your assets, charge you, etc., it doesn't matter what any of the merits of the case are, as they are an unchecked continuing criminal enterprise.

They also strong-arm FFL dealers into being Confidential Informants for them, in exchange for being "allowed" to continue their business and not be arrested on trumped up charges. Dealing with the ATF is a double-edged sword that can turn on you with the simple change of a SAIC or lower manager in your Federal Region, and none of the Federal Regions are on the same sheet of music. They regularly ignore Firearms Technology Branch in D.C., and most SAIC's are totally ignorant of FTB anyway, since none of them are gun guys. The SAICs are political appointees exercising the will of the Attorney General in most cases.

In this climate, we have an Attorney General who is a criminal himself, who ordered multiple programs to allow weapons to be sold to straw-purchasers for the cartels.

During the Clinton years, the AG ordered ATF to systematically go after FFL's in Idaho after Ruby Ridge, which they did. The facts don't matter, only ATF court matters, and if you're in ATF court, you will lose. It's a double-edged sword, dealing with ATF. One moment you think they're your friends, then a new SAIC comes in, and your FFL is revoked. They've done it for simple reasons like saying that your 4473's are out of alphabetical order.

Following the ATF's extrajudical "rulings" may or may not protect you. In the long run, they will shut most FFL's down, only for another batch to start up and repeat the process. Licking the boots of the ATF can buy you some time, but they are criminals at the end of the day, so you can't trust a dog that is known to bite.

There are assumptions being made about the Grendel in the OP, that are way off base, with regard to being sent in the mail, profit, chain of custody, etc., but keep accusing people of crimes on behalf of the ATF. It's good to see where people stand on these issues.

One thing I have found useful is a post history, when determining why someone would defecate all over a thread. That feature will explain right away why it was done in this one.

[Tedward]

The reason I say its a 7 is when I started my business I was refurbishing old Lee Enfield rifles and the local ATF agent informed me although it was gunsmithing I would require a class 7 FFL as I was improving the gun therefore it was manufacturing. I quoted the above ruling and was told as soon as I remove any part from the gun that was manufacturing. Just saying and I have learnt not to question the ATF as you will loose.

I agreed with Ridgerider so if you want to take the risk and disregard the advice, deal with the consequences when it arises. If there is question, stop reading and interpreting the law and telling people it is ok.

Each of you should cover yourself and contact the ATF in Matrinsburg WV. (304)616-4600. I have spoke to them numerous times on this particular topic and that is why I obtained my Class 7 too. Do your OWN homework and don't take others advise, they wont pay your attorneys fee's.

Just friendly advice.

[Ridgerider]

The ATF has made these "rulings" without any judicial oversight. They are not part of the legislative branch, and they have their own court system. If they want to steal your assets, charge you, etc., it doesn't matter what any of the merits of the case are, as they are an unchecked continuing criminal enterprise.

They also strong-arm FFL dealers into being Confidential Informants for them, in exchange for being "allowed" to continue their business and not be arrested on trumped up charges. Dealing with the ATF is a double-edged sword that can turn on you with the simple change of a SAIC or lower manager in your Federal Region, and none of the Federal Regions are on the same sheet of music. They regularly ignore Firearms Technology Branch in D.C., and most SAIC's are totally ignorant of FTB anyway, since none of them are gun guys. The SAICs are political appointees exercising the will of the Attorney General in most cases.

In this climate, we have an Attorney General who is a criminal himself, who ordered multiple programs to allow weapons to be sold to straw-purchasers for the cartels.

During the Clinton years, the AG ordered ATF to systematically go after FFL's in Idaho after Ruby Ridge, which they did. The facts don't matter, only ATF court matters, and if you're in ATF court, you will lose. It's a double-edged sword, dealing with ATF. One moment you think they're your friends, then a new SAIC comes in, and your FFL is revoked. They've done it for simple reasons like saying that your 4473's are out of alphabetical order.

Following the ATF's extrajudical "rulings" may or may not protect you. In the long run, they will shut most FFL's down, only for another batch to start up and repeat the process. Licking the boots of the ATF can buy you some time, but they are criminals at the end of the day, so you can't trust a dog that is known to bite.

So I take it then you are not a licensed FFL and your statement above is your opinion and that you are not trying to suggest that licensed FFL holders are bunch of boot lickers and FFL dealers are Confidential Informants for ATF. WOW FROM A MODERATOR OF A This FORUM

[Tedward]

Ridgerider, you beet me to my post.

Do you have your FFL? You are asking and offering people to send there firearms to you so you can test them. Once it leaves there possession it is to be in route to an FFL for transfer or FFL Holder for gunsmitting or what ever the reason for the transfer.

If you do then that is between you and the person who is sending you there firearm. You offering that puts them in jeopardy if they don't know the law or think of the ramification and don't ask you for your information.

If I go on a hunt in Colorado and want to ship my rifle while I take the plane, it needs to be shipped to an FFL. I don't just ship it to the hotel and pick it up from guest services. The guy in the back room might be a felon and not have good intentions. It protects the shipper from there firearm getting into the wrong hands and it is there responsibility to make sure the firearm is safeguarded.

Again, who cares about your opinion of the stupid laws, and yes lots don't make sense but you still need to follow them weather you like it or not.

[LRRPF52]

Here's friendly advice. Be careful accusing people of committing crimes whose backgrounds you are totally unaware of, who just might have worked OCDETF and JTF cases, as well as other areas that have closer access to decision-makers than a low-level field agent who takes orders from the SAIC.

Without even saying anything, they could come across a thread like this and pull your FFL up, when you thought you were being cute.

See how that works? These guys don't care about the law. Think about it like mafia crime bosses with their racketeering thugs who go make the rounds.
They don't need a reason to pinch you for your assets and money, as they are told by SAICs to "Always Think Forfeiture". If they see a way to get your assets, and the mid level managers will back them up or outright order it, you're done. The appeals process is through an ATF court. Guess how many of their own decisions they have overturned....

There is a glass house with this, and I'm not throwing stones. Also, at no point will you read in the thread that this was an advertisement for services.

[LRRPF52]

Asking an FFL dealer what the ATF's rules of the day is like asking a peasant on the block how much the racketeers will ask for this week in protection money.

Asking an FFL dealer in Idaho, who are under Seattle's regional control, what ATF thinks about anything is like asking the rabbit where the coyote is. Look up what ATF did to FFL's in Idaho in the 1990's. It was a slaughterhouse, especially for mom and pop shops. Nobody had the financial resources to fight the ATF rulings and US Attorneys in the ATF Court System, so they just lost everything, including inventory, homes...

It's the ATF guys.

[Ridgerider]

Hey Guys just a reminder that any person doing this type of work needs to be an ffl so if you want work like that done make sure they are an ffl. Have run into a few companies at gun shows offering Cerekote and dipping services who are not licensed FFl's so be warned.

No one is accusing anybody of anything just reminding the forum to obey the law and if a member requires that type of work then abide by the law for every bodies sake and use a licensed FFL.

[Ridgerider]

Asking an FFL dealer what the ATF's rules of the day is like asking a peasant on the block how much the racketeers will ask for this week in protection money.

Asking an FFL dealer in Idaho, who are under Denver's regional control, what ATF thinks about anything is like asking the rabbit where the coyote is. Look up what ATF did to FFL's in Idaho in the 1990's. It was a slaughterhouse, especially for mom and pop shops. Nobody had the financial resources to fight the ATF rulings and US Attorneys in the ATF Court System, so they just lost everything, including inventory, homes...

It's the ATF guys.

Actually its Washington State

[LRRPF52]

Why are we talking about the ATF in this thread? That's my question.

Roger on Seattle Fed office for Idaho, Denver for MT, UT, WY, ND, SD, CO. Gotta get da bosses straight, capiche.

They are criminals at the end of the day.

RIP Brian Terry