Lightweight Hunting Bullets

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  • BluntForceTrauma
    Administrator
    • Feb 2011
    • 3897

    #31
    Bob, I've never understood lightweight bullets in the 65G, thinking that if one wants to go THAT light, then just stick with a heavy bullet in 5.56.

    HOWEVER, 6.8 SPC shooters, for example, seem to LOVE their Barnes 95 TTSX at, oh, about 2700 fps from a 16" (even though it's been dropped from the SSA 2014 catalog). That weight kills just fine the deer and hogs most American hunters want to kill.

    Secondly, you are a VERY experienced shooter, and have a very high ballistic intelligence, knowing that it's not MUZZLE velocity but retained IMPACT velocity. But not everybody knows this.

    As purely a matter of marketing the 65G to the average hunter, it seems prudent to me to put on a little dog-and-pony show, and have some offerings that impress, for better or worse, the average guy with high muzzle velocity numbers. Once the initial sale is made and experience with the cartridge is gained, THEN I'd hope the new shooter comes to realize the benefit of high BC and moderate velocity.

    I'd ask you the same question I asked Drifter: Given the current mindset of AR newbies, what, in your opinion, is the best loading to market the 65G to the uninitiated? I know you've made a strong case for the 123 SST; is that your final answer?

    John
    :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

    :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

    Comment

    • VASCAR2
      Chieftain
      • Mar 2011
      • 6219

      #32
      I like the lighter bullets for varmints in my area. I could use my 5.56 but I just like my 6.5 Grendel. I like the 100 grain Sierra Varmint and 100 grain Nosler BT which cover the distance I varmint hunt. I like how the 85 grain Sierra, 90 grain TNT and 95 grain V-Max shoot in my 16" Grendel but I haven't connected on varmints with the lighter bullets.

      For longer range target shooting I really like the 123 grain A-Max and 123 grain Nosler CC.

      Comment

      • sneaky one
        Chieftain
        • Mar 2011
        • 3077

        #33
        Locked my comp up last nite-could not finish my ideas.
        B foot,-- I really like your input on the longer plastic tips.. That is fine for a ( your ) boltie. I got another tip from your ideas, to add to the future Hornady presentation.
        I have another -well 2- companies in converse. Good to know a lot of guys in the gun industry!

        We sad sacks who own AR's have to live within the confines of a roughly, oal of 2.26--2.30 in the magazine. So the longer tips are a no - go.
        I have honed down tips to extend the oal, just to get more cfe powder inside. All with excellent groups, no pressure signs, great speeds.
        The bullets open as designed , with the shorter tips.

        BC's really matter , if you step outside the bounderies of your 2-300 yd. comfort zone -as most guys-gals hunt within this realm. I pop them @ 50 yds.= sneaky guy I am.
        I have only done h2o & deer testing with the lighter pills. I would not hesitate to pop a moose @ 100yds with a 95 Gmx.

        Shot placement is the key. RS shoots smaller deer in GA with a .22 Hornet=neck shots, know your targeted animal- study the skeletal structure- nerves , arteries, etc.

        Become a better shooter, even if you are sniper class now. Test yourself, prove to your buds that you can make the , all angle -situation shots.

        Comment

        • sneaky one
          Chieftain
          • Mar 2011
          • 3077

          #34
          Hanka, man we need to connect for a shoot together this spring. I can finally show you- also you can try a few of the lighter pills, that I will bring along.
          The 95 Gmx @ 2859 will smack down the 6.8.

          A MN thaw will be awesome here. I'll make a believer out of you , on these pills.

          The ideas for the cool lil Grrr round should never stop. It's just behind the - 6.5 X 55 in speeds., so it makes sense to lighten the bullets to mimic the Grendel that way. On energy, speeds , etc.
          It's a Swede jr. as it is now, yet with a few new pills, powders, we can make this the Swede. It takes time is all. I'm pumped for the round.
          Last edited by sneaky one; 03-03-2014, 11:35 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Hi John,
            I bought into the Jack O'conner version of the .270. And to some practical degree he was right on, short for caliber bullets at high velocity make a lot of sense for the average distance most BIG game is taken, 200 yards and in. I was educated at the same university as Jack, lived in the same city, hunted the same game. I can't argue with his logic, but I can say there is much more to be had, if you are willing to put forth the effort.
            There in lies the issue with the 6.5 Grendel, it takes a lot of effort to realize the potential, and the average American isn't willing to expend that effort. I could be argued that it isn't a good investment of time or energy to do so. If your game is taken at 200 yard or less, and most is, then the 6.8 SPC works just fine. It gets the job done as measured by the average American game larder. Everything else is just a mental exercise.
            However if one takes the time to understand and the effort to utilize the advantages of the 6.5 Grendel, it is superior, and will reward the effort with superior results. The problem is that those superior results are perhaps 5-10% of the situations most American hunters face.
            I am now spending a lot of my time in Europe, conditions are much different. Laws, regulations, and traditions dictate a completely different set of considerations. Driven game is a big part of the equation. Shots at 50 yards or less at moving game preclude precise bullet placement. For this condition, I use a Blaser R8 with an Aimpoint H1 red dot sight on my 6.5x55 barrel, firing a Lapua 155 grain Mega bullet. The Mega might be described as a "soft" bullet, it reliably takes away the ability of game to continue forth. In other words it stops them right there. That is important, because it precludes the services of a tracking dog at 250 Eros call out.
            However, when I'm assigned my Battue, I really wish I had my AR15 6.5 Grendel using the 123 SST instead of my straight pull Blaser that cost three times as much and although a great gun is not equally up to the task. Laws preclude the AR15 platform.
            As summary, I would chose the 6.5 Grendel in an AR 15 platform if allowed and pile up the game.
            Bob

            Comment


            • #36
              Bob says it very well, and gets to key point of why this thread was started. The text in red bold below says it:
              Originally posted by stokesrj View Post
              Hi John,
              I bought into the Jack O'conner version of the .270. And to some practical degree he was right on, short for caliber bullets at high velocity make a lot of sense for the average distance most BIG game is taken, 200 yards and in. I was educated at the same university as Jack, lived in the same city, hunted the same game. I can't argue with his logic, but I can say there is much more to be had, if you are willing to put forth the effort.
              There in lies the issue with the 6.5 Grendel, it takes a lot of effort to realize the potential, and the average American isn't willing to expend that effort. I could be argued that it isn't a good investment of time or energy to do so. If your game is taken at 200 yard or less, and most is, then the 6.8 SPC works just fine. It gets the job done as measured by the average American game larder. Everything else is just a mental exercise.
              However if one takes the time to understand and the effort to utilize the advantages of the 6.5 Grendel, it is superior, and will reward the effort with superior results. The problem is that those superior results are perhaps 5-10% of the situations most American hunters face.
              I am now spending a lot of my time in Europe, conditions are much different. Laws, regulations, and traditions dictate a completely different set of considerations. Driven game is a big part of the equation. Shots at 50 yards or less at moving game preclude precise bullet placement. For this condition, I use a Blaser R8 with an Aimpoint H1 red dot sight on my 6.5x55 barrel, firing a Lapua 155 grain Mega bullet. The Mega might be described as a "soft" bullet, it reliably takes away the ability of game to continue forth. In other words it stops them right there. That is important, because it precludes the services of a tracking dog at 250 Eros call out.
              However, when I'm assigned my Battue, I really wish I had my AR15 6.5 Grendel using the 123 SST instead of my straight pull Blaser that cost three times as much and although a great gun is not equally up to the task. Laws preclude the AR15 platform.
              As summary, I would chose the 6.5 Grendel in an AR 15 platform if allowed and pile up the game.
              Bob
              The rest of the discussion here and most of the other posts bring out something I had never really considered. Grendeliers tend to be elite hunters who are willing to put in the extra effort to do well at challenging distances. That's actually a strong selling point for the Grendel!

              Hanka's point also illustrates the core theme of the thread:
              As purely a matter of marketing the 65G to the average hunter, it seems prudent to me to put on a little dog-and-pony show, and have some offerings that impress, for better or worse, the average guy with high muzzle velocity numbers. Once the initial sale is made and experience with the cartridge is gained, THEN I'd hope the new shooter comes to realize the benefit of high BC and moderate velocity.
              This takes us back to an earlier observation: It seems possible that we can field a load that shoots as flat or flatter than 100 gr Power-Point loads from the .243 Winchester with bullets that can reliably harvest all North American deer. That means the hunter only needs to aim at the center of the vital zone all the way out to almost 300 yards when the rifle is zeroed 1.5" high at 100 yards. The only time he might get in trouble is when the winds are blowing stronger than 10 mph. At that point, a little upwind correction for point of aim might be needed.

              Doing that with less recoil than even the .243 Winchester could really attract entry level shooters whether they are using the AR or bolt guns.
              Last edited by Guest; 03-04-2014, 12:29 AM.

              Comment

              • rickOshay
                Warrior
                • Apr 2012
                • 784

                #37
                Bob - the restrictive legislation that you are experiencing in Europe is heading our way. One if the drivers of this discussion is the prohibition of lead-based ammunition for hunting.

                So what if you found yourself unable to use those SST's?

                There have been lots of game taken with the 100 and 120 gr TTSX. But they do require lots of velocity to open. And within 200 yds, all is well.

                But some are looking for more options in the marketplace.

                If you were to add another solid, what weight would you want?

                Comment

                • Drifter
                  Chieftain
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 1662

                  #38
                  Anyone recall what bullet(s) Bill A. and Arne B. have stated publicly would be their choice for shooting the Grendel at 1000 yards?

                  IIRC, they both mentioned the same projectile.

                  It's not a hunting bullet, but perhaps it's indicative of the best bullet design to maximize Grendel performance.

                  In addition to a lead-core plastic-tip hunting version of the same weight, use the same shape for an all-copper bullet and let the weight fall where it may.

                  Two new bullets to make everyone happy.
                  Drifter

                  Comment

                  • BjornF16
                    Chieftain
                    • Jun 2011
                    • 1825

                    #39
                    Drifter...

                    108 Scenar?...see http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...ll=1#post72697

                    Arne's post: http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/foru...endel#post4732

                    Bwaites quoting Bill Alexander: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...ll=1#post32078
                    Last edited by BjornF16; 03-04-2014, 01:33 AM.
                    LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
                    Defend the Constitution and our 2A Rights!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Approximate density for cup & core bullets is 10.5, Pure copper is 8.9 so we would get an approximate "Copper Scenar" weight of (8.9/10.5)*108 = 91.5 grains.

                      That 91.5 lead-free expanding bullet would likely make wound channels similar to 135 - 140 grain cup & core bullets.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Bill A in a 2004 article. http://airbornecombatengineer.typepa...rendel_ak.html

                        Cant find the original anymore although I have the full text. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1228490/posts

                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The 123-grain Lapua Scenar with a ballistic coefficient of .547 launched at modest 2600 fps muzzle velocity delivers outstanding long range performance out to 1200 yards. Accuracy levels were impressive with test rifles forming single digit groups at 1,000 yards and at 600 yards, tennis ball sized targets are easy prey with a scope adjustment of only 14 MOA with a 200-yard zero.

                        In ballistic gelatin tests, the Lapua 108-grain Scenar launched at a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps penetrated 22" of gelatin with a .43" diameter and 64% weight retention at a distance of 300 yards. As a more casual test, the Lapua 108-grain bullet consistently sliced through 4" pine posts at 900 yards."
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Now I know the 123 is a killer and the 108 shares the same jacket. I can link to a mega page thread showing kills with it and the 139 as well as the 155 from a 308. They all work. And yet nobody has killed anything (other than the AZ guy I linked recently) with the 108?

                        Who has some 108s on hand? Care to shoot some into wet paper, jugs or whatnot and get back to us?

                        Comment

                        • Drifter
                          Chieftain
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 1662

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Bigfoot View Post
                          Now I know the 123 is a killer and the 108 shares the same jacket. I can link to a mega page thread showing kills with it and the 139 as well as the 155 from a 308. They all work. And yet nobody has killed anything (other than the AZ guy I linked recently) with the 108?

                          Who has some 108s on hand? Care to shoot some into wet paper, jugs or whatnot and get back to us?
                          While I have seen the 123gr Scenar work on medium game, I've also seen it fail miserably a few times. Performance hasn't been consistent in my experience.

                          I might try the 108 Scenar into some water jugs to compare with other bullets that I've tested previously, but I know that the 107 SMK will often completely disintegrate into jugs at 50 yards.

                          In addition to inconsistent mushrooms from match-type bullets, their path of travel after impact also seems rather unpredictable. So far, I don't consider match-type bullets to be reliable in terminal performance for hunting medium game. YMMV
                          Last edited by Drifter; 03-04-2014, 02:29 AM.
                          Drifter

                          Comment

                          • Von Gruff
                            Chieftain
                            • Apr 2012
                            • 1078

                            #43
                            Loving this conversation. Still using the 123gn A Max at 2700fps in my GM bolt rifle though. Will go to the SST when the A Max's on hand are all gone.
                            http://www.vongruffknives.com/

                            sigpic Von Gruff



                            Grendel-Max

                            Exodus 20:1-17
                            Acts 4:10-12

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                            • montana
                              Chieftain
                              • Jun 2011
                              • 3209

                              #44
                              The Barnes TSX 120 grain bullet has yet to fail me. Penetration and shot placement has been an absolute with me in my experience. I want a bullet that will not blow apart but penetrate with utmost reliability.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I've got other loads for the 100 and 120 grain TTSX, and they have performed fine on actual game, one shot kills every time, all handgun thus far, but I've got them loaded up in my rifle too.

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