6.5 x 40 New AR varient

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  • cory
    Chieftain
    • Jun 2012
    • 2985

    #16
    The problem with the M249 feed system is its tolerance. This is due to the fact that it's constructed with cheap stamped components. This is fine when the rifle is new; however, with a little wear the rifle quickly becomes increasingly sloppy. The weapon requires an incredible amount of attention and maintenance; otherwise, it's an incredible frustrating platform. To effectively employ the M249 with any reliability you have to know the weapon in your hands better than you know your own hands. The links are of little consequence here.

    Stanc do you see that hole in that link. That instantly tells me that there's potential to decrease the width of that portion of the link and still maintain adequate strength. You must realize that Material Science has come light years since the 60's. I'm certain links can be made smaller and stronger at a comparable if not cheaper cost. However, there will be a substantial initial investment in tooling.

    This is a relatively simple Engineering task in a very mature science. This task is no different than designing a magazine to reliably feed a new round, i.e. the Grendel. Have such magazines been designed? Yes, most work very well. Can that magazine design be improved upon? Most certainly.
    Last edited by cory; 04-08-2014, 02:46 AM.
    "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

    Comment

    • stanc
      Banned
      • Apr 2011
      • 3430

      #17
      Originally posted by cory View Post
      The problem with the M249 feed system is its tolerance. This is due to the fact that it's constructed with cheap stamped components. This is fine when the rifle is new; however, with a little wear the rifle quickly becomes increasingly sloppy. The weapon requires an incredible amount of attention and maintenance; otherwise, it's an incredible frustrating platform. To effectively employ the M249 with any reliability you have to know the weapon in your hands better than you know your own hands. The links are of little consequence here.
      Of little consequence??? That's just not true. The links are of major importance to a belt-fed weapon. Without them, at best all you have is an exceedingly expensive, overly complex, and unduly heavy, magazine-fed rifle. That's in the specific case of the M249. For others, like the Mk46 and MG4, you wouldn't have even that much. Viable links are absolutely critical.
      Stanc do you see that hole in that link. That instantly tells me that there's potential to decrease the width of that portion of the link and still maintain adequate strength. You must realize that Material Science has come light years since the 60's. I'm certain links can be made smaller and stronger...
      All of that has been said before. Unfortunately, as with the others before you, all you have provided is speculation and wishful thinking. It is still yet to be proven that the link loops can be made sufficiently narrow, yet have the necessary combination of strength and elasticity.
      This task is no different than designing a magazine to reliably feed a new round, i.e. the Grendel. Have such magazines been designed? Yes, most work very well.
      Yes, they do. However, the tasks are quite different.

      Grendel magazines have the same external dimensions as 5.56 magazines.

      In contrast, Grendel links -- if the loops are narrowed as you suggest -- would have substantially different dimensions than 5.56 links. There is no assurance that such an altered design would work.

      Comment

      • cory
        Chieftain
        • Jun 2012
        • 2985

        #18
        Originally posted by stanc View Post
        Of little consequence??? That's just not true. The links are of major importance to a belt-fed weapon. Without them, at best all you have is an exceedingly expensive, overly complex, and unduly heavy, magazine-fed rifle. That's in the specific case of the M249. For others, like the Mk46 and MG4, you wouldn't have even that much. Viable links are absolutely critical.

        All of that has been said before. Unfortunately, as with the others before you, all you have provided is speculation and wishful thinking. It is still yet to be proven that the link loops can be made sufficiently narrow, yet have the necessary combination of strength and elasticity.

        Yes, they do. However, the tasks are quite different.

        Grendel magazines have the same external dimensions as 5.56 magazines.

        In contrast, Grendel links -- if the loops are narrowed as you suggest -- would have substantially different dimensions than 5.56 links. There is no assurance that such an altered design would work.
        It's a relative comparison. Yes, the links are critical in the functioning. However, when analyzing the problems of the M249 the links are a minor factor compared to the real issues.

        If all this has been said before, by no doubt other engineers, than what does that tell you? At this point you're only being ridiculous. It's being stubborn for being stubborns sake. What do you base your assumption on? Mine comes from professional and academic experience. We can design and build computers that fit in the palm of your hand that are orders of magnitude more powerful than the most powerful computers of the 1960's, yet it's hard to believe we can't design and build a disintegrating link for the Grendel case???
        "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

        Comment


        • #19
          Stan, you have been arguing that the links "aren't proven to be doable" for several years -- back to 2010 or 2011 to my direct knowledge and I infer for much longer than that. Every one of us now understands that US has exclusively used links for more than 50 years. That means that we also agree that a link system will need to be developed and proven as part of a serious development program.

          We count on you to point out gaps in logic and knowledge deficiencies as discussions move forward. Looking back over the past four years and more of our discussions, I begin to see that one of the best contributions you can make is to post a list of critical issues and your understanding of their development status.

          Recognize that others will add to the list and that some will not concur with either your assessment or the larger community judgement of status. That is normal and reasonable. The resulting discussions will help the right folks build a more effective development plan.

          The link issue but one item on that that will need to be worked. The question of link 'do-ability' has been beaten to death. It is time to put it on the shelf in favor of issues more critical to what will result in an adoptable squad and platoon level light and medium machine guns. Keep it on your list, however, because developing and proving link system function will be a critical part of a serious development program.

          Further, engineers and other folks familiar with this class of work are very much in accord that functional and reliable links can be developed for this cartridge. That engineering consensus tells us that we can put links on the list of things to be worked, but they are not the show-stopper implied by the repeated and overly lengthy debate.

          Let's move on and work some of the other issues -- we will count on you reminding the community if link development doesn't show up as part of a comprehensive R&D plan.

          Comment

          • stanc
            Banned
            • Apr 2011
            • 3430

            #20
            Originally posted by cory View Post
            It's a relative comparison. Yes, the links are critical in the functioning. However, when analyzing the problems of the M249 the links are a minor factor compared to the real issues.
            Irrelevant. Any flaws the M249 has are not the issue.
            If all this has been said before, by no doubt other engineers, than what does that tell you?
            It's been said by other Grendel fans, none of whom have professed any expertise or experience in design and fabrication of machine gun links.
            What do you base your assumption on?
            Faulty question. I made no assumption.
            We can design and build computers that fit in the palm of your hand that are orders of magnitude more powerful than the most powerful computers of the 1960's, yet it's hard to believe we can't design and build a disintegrating link for the Grendel case???
            I never said it can't be done. I said only that no one has proven that it can be done.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by stanc View Post
              ...It's been said by other Grendel fans, none of whom have professed any expertise or experience in design and fabrication of machine gun links...
              Not true -- we did track down at least one person familiar with the process. He indicated that the development of the link is straightforward, but building the necessary stamping dies is prohibitively costly unless a serious and funded development program is in place to support the build.

              I don't however, recall whether that discussion was in this incarnation of the forum or the old one. Either way, you or anyone else is welcome to search through several hundred posts to find it.

              This bone has been chewed enough, let's move on to more critical items in the quest for a new machine gun.
              Last edited by Guest; 04-08-2014, 02:47 PM.

              Comment

              • stanc
                Banned
                • Apr 2011
                • 3430

                #22
                Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                The question of link 'do-ability' has been beaten to death.
                Yes, it's old news for you and other long-time forum members. But, since Cory was apparently unaware of the issue, I sought to bring him up to speed on the subject. To have ignored his questions would've been inconsiderate.
                It is time to put it on the shelf in favor of issues more critical to what will result in an adoptable squad and platoon level light and medium machine guns.
                What is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links???

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  #23
                  Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                  Originally posted by stanc
                  ...It's been said by other Grendel fans, none of whom have professed any expertise or experience in design and fabrication of machine gun links...
                  Not true -- we did track down at least one person familiar with the process. He indicated that the development of the link is straightforward...
                  As I recall, said individual had some experience in stamping sheet metal parts, but no experience in design and development of machine gun links.
                  I don't however, recall whether that discussion was in this incarnation of the forum or the old one. Either way, you or anyone else is welcome to search through several hundred posts to find it.
                  Uh, if you're going to cite it as support for your position, shouldn't you search for it?
                  This bone has been chewed enough, let's move on to more critical items in the quest for a new machine gun.
                  Again, what is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links? Without a usable link design, there can't be a belt-fed machine gun.

                  Comment

                  • bwaites
                    Moderator
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 4445

                    #24
                    Originally posted by stanc View Post
                    As I recall, said individual had some experience in stamping sheet metal parts, but no experience in design and development of machine gun links.

                    Uh, if you're going to cite it as support for your position, shouldn't you search for it?

                    Again, what is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links? Without a usable link design, there can't be a belt-fed machine gun.
                    Uhhhh.....Don't you usually design the LMG first, then design the links that will work with whatever cartridge you decide you want to run in the gun? As I recall, past MG's have used some standard cartridge, then changed to whatever the cartridge was that the end user wanted. (I'll grant that sometimes the end user cartridge was predetermined, but regardless, the gun came first, then the link.)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by stanc View Post
                      ...Again, what is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links? Without a usable link design, there can't be a belt-fed machine gun...
                      Stan, the focus on this issue to the detriment of others keeps folks from moving forward.

                      You have shown that you really don't know what goes into link design, and that you are absolutely unwilling to accept the judgements of a growing number of people that the issue, while import, is not worth solving just now.

                      We know the link is a critical part, but NOT the issue that will cause the project to fail. The continued beating of this horse will keep folks from discussing other, and even more critical, issues.

                      We really would like to see your list of these issues. It would make an excellent starting point. We would be disappointed of links do not show on the list, but truly annoyed if they are the ONLY item on the list.

                      Let's move on to those other issues.

                      Comment

                      • stanc
                        Banned
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 3430

                        #26
                        Originally posted by bwaites View Post
                        Uhhhh.....Don't you usually design the LMG first, then design the links that will work with whatever cartridge you decide you want to run in the gun? As I recall, past MG's have used some standard cartridge, then changed to whatever the cartridge was that the end user wanted. (I'll grant that sometimes the end user cartridge was predetermined, but regardless, the gun came first, then the link.)
                        I dunno, Bill. I've never designed a machine gun.

                        However, I would think that if a new machine gun was being designed from scratch, link development would be done at least in parallel, what with it being absolutely critical to gun operation.

                        As to a hypothetical 6.5 Grendel LMG, I'm inclined to think that development of a completely new weapon is unlikely. Since the cartridge was designed as an alternative to 5.56mm, I'd expect manufacturers like FN and HK to simply Grendelize their existing M249/Mk46 and MG4 machine guns. In which case, link development would still be of utmost importance.

                        Comment

                        • cory
                          Chieftain
                          • Jun 2012
                          • 2985

                          #27
                          Will link development be important, yes. Will it be elementary, most certainly. Shall we move on, please.
                          "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

                          Comment

                          • stanc
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 3430

                            #28
                            Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                            We know the link is a critical part, but NOT the issue that will cause the project to fail.
                            I disagree. Link design is the one issue that can cause it to fail. Without viable links, there can be no belt-fed machine gun, which would render any other issue moot.
                            The continued beating of this horse will keep folks from discussing other, and even more critical, issues.

                            We really would like to see your list of these issues.

                            Let's move on to those other issues.
                            Joe, I am not the one who has been repeatedly saying there are other issues. You are.

                            I have asked you twice what those supposed issues are, but each time you have refused to answer.

                            If you wish to discuss them, you'll have to provide the list. (And may I suggest it be in the Military sub-forum, which would be more appropriate.)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Stan, do you really think that this kind of sophomoric argument makes any valid points?

                              Go on the the next topic so we can have an intelligent conversation again.

                              Comment

                              • stanc
                                Banned
                                • Apr 2011
                                • 3430

                                #30
                                Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                                Stan, do you really think that this kind of sophomoric argument makes any valid points?
                                Non sequitur. Do you really think you can intimidate me by such thinly veiled insults?
                                Go on the the next topic so we can have an intelligent conversation again.
                                Just what is the next topic, Joe? You've now evaded answering me for the third time as to what are your "other, and even more critical, issues" regarding a 5.56mm M249 replacement, issues that you say merit discussion.

                                And for the record, you and Cory are as much to blame as I, for this lengthy focus on the link issue.

                                Comment

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