A sure enough anchor 'em in their tracks round!

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  • Lonehill
    Bloodstained
    • Aug 2013
    • 83

    A sure enough anchor 'em in their tracks round!

    Looking for a bullet that will provide enough power to anchor a deer or hog out to 300 or 350 yds. Lots of open country and big fields around here. Old bucks like to come out late and run on out in middle of field far from cover/shooting position. Need a bullet that'll reach out and knock the crap outta one. Have heard some folks say that 6.5 is no better than a .243 due to the lack of speed. Speed kills I know, but not what I want to hear after going to all this trouble. I know shot placement is king and this gives a custom 6.5 an advantage I would hope. Got a 22" med/heavy Satern barrel. How would say a Nosler partition on the heavier side fair? I'm not too into using poly tips on game animals, but if it works I'm willing. How good would the 123 SST do on a mature whitetail at that range?
  • NugginFutz
    Chieftain
    • Aug 2013
    • 2622

    #2
    Well, referencing the Vol. II of the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook (which I highly recommend) the 123 SST consistently has the greatest expansion (p. 45) expanding to approx. .620" @ 2660 fps and .389" @ 1880 fps, in ballistic gelatin. (Compared to 100NBT, 100TTSX and 100 Part.) Below 1800, expansion is negligible. Weight retention is very good. My 22" barrel runs factory SST's @ just over 2600 fps.

    There have been many reports of hog and deer being taken with this round (search is your friend), and I have no doubt that the 123 SST will do the job. As far as your .243 friends go, I have both and there is no doubt in my mind that the Grendel outperforms the .243. It isn't speed which kills - it is energy. Picture a 5000 fps ping pong ball, vs a 1000 fps golf ball.

    At sea level, here are the basic numbers out to 500 yards, using a JBM calculation and G1 BC's. Beyond 500, the 6.5 better retains velocity and energy, but that is not relevant to the hunting aspects of this.

    Code:
    Temp. (Faht)	59						
    Altitude (feet)	0						
    Pressure (mbar)	1014						
    							
    		243 Win, Hdy Interlock		6.5 Grendel, Hdy SST		
    Muzzle (fps)	3000				2650		
    Bullet (gn)	100				123		
    BC		0.405				0.51	
    Barrel		24"				24"
    							
    Range		Speed	Energy	Drop		Speed	Energy	Drop
    [yards]		[fps]	[ft.lb]	[inches]	[fps]	[ft.lb]	[inches]
    0		3008.2	2009	-1.5		2656.1	1926.4	-1.5
    100		2766.5	1699.2	0		2477.3	1675.8	0
    200		2535	1426.6	-3.1		2305.5	1451.5	-4.2
    300		2314.4	1189.2	-11.5		2140.5	1251.2	-14.9
    400		2105.6	984.2	-26.5		1982.4	1073.1	-33.2
    500		1907.8	808	-49.4		1831.6	916.1	-60.4
    As far as what some of your friends have said being not what you want to hear, you can always do what some have, and stick your fingers in your ears while saying "La la la la..."

    Just another Spreadsheet hunter's opinion.
    Last edited by NugginFutz; 05-03-2014, 10:38 PM.
    If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

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    • #3
      Ditto on the above post. having owned a 243 I was never happy with any of the performance I got out of it. it was sold and replaced with a 7x57 Mauser for my son that has killed everything it has ever been used on with no tracking and most found within 50 yds if they ran at all. My 6.5 Grendel performs the same way. It isn't the fastest ride out there but when the bullet hits the hide I doubt the animals can tell the difference. Zero tracking light recoil all in an AR platform. What else do you need?

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      • Lonehill
        Bloodstained
        • Aug 2013
        • 83

        #4
        Thanks for the info. Looks like the 23 gr gain in mass makes up for the loss in velocity. Guess the high BC is what makes it possible. I know I've killed at least 50 deer with a .243. Never needed anything more really. It is a true "rifleman" caliber if you ask me. You have to place your shot. I like high shoulder. Most of the time they drop instant. Only ever used 100gr PSP's. Got a Win 70 Lightweight had since I was a kid. Sighted in dead on @ 200 with a 3-9X40 Redfield scope, an old one at that. Never has it lost zero. I've never messed with it since I was 14. No sense messing with what works. I like to take at least one doe a year with it anymore just for old time sake. Can count on one hand the number of times a deer ran over 50 yds. Only lost one that I recall, and probably shouldn't took the shot, she was trotting along out about 325 with pretty stiff crosswind. Hit her but she ran off. Dropped several does at around 300. It's a meat getter but I wouldn't want to use it on a buck at any range beyond 250. Just wanted make sure that the 6.5 would be capable of extending max effective range enough to justify the trouble. Looks promising. Thanks
        Last edited by Lonehill; 05-04-2014, 03:53 AM. Reason: more info

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        • Lead Chucker

          #5
          The Grendel with a 123gn SST will do what you need. I shot a buck at 370 yrds this past year. It ran less that 20 yrds and DRT. It works.

          Comment


          • #6
            Having shot a lot of game with a lot of calibers, I can say with confidence there is no shoulder fired rifle that will produce 100% on the spot kills. I've had deer run 100 yards or so even with my .375 H&H when shot through the lungs. I've wondered why when I see lung matter hanging in the bushes where they were shot, still they can go as long as the oxygen in their system will take them.

            Like others, I've had disappointing results with the .243 although I have never lost an animal with it, I've done a lot of tracking, a lot of searching, and some times found them simply by grid searching. The 6.5 Grendel with the 123 SST is far superior to the .243 on game but will still require precise shot placement to drop them on the spot.

            When I find myself in a situation that it would be really important that the animal not move very far, like on the edge of a thick tangle of vegetation, then I use the high shoulder shot. Placing the bullet through both shoulders and clipping the bottom of the back bone while driving bone fragments all through the lungs seems to repeatably drop them right there.

            With the 6.5 Grendel, the 123 SST bullet is pretty much optimum. There are trade offs with anything, the Barnes TSX may perform better when used at close range and shot through heavy muscle and bone, but will fail to open properly even a medium long range. Bullets that open quickly, like the Nosler Ballistic tip, may come completely apart, loosing mass and fail to penetrate deeply when a close range steep angle shot is taken. The 123SST seems to get the job done up close and far away. I've shot quite a few head of game with the bullet now, only recovered one that stayed in the animal, but all have perfumed well and the furthest I've had an animal go after the shot is 15 yards.
            Bob
            Last edited by Guest; 05-04-2014, 04:28 PM.

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            • tmax264
              Unwashed
              • Jan 2013
              • 21

              #7
              I'm working up a load of a Nosler 100gr BT starting at 2775fps. Should still be traveling 1800fps at 400 yards which is about bottom end for a NBT opening up. Initial group was 4 rounds at 0.7" at 100yds

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              • Lonehill
                Bloodstained
                • Aug 2013
                • 83

                #8
                The outfitter I guide for doesn't allow poly/ballistic tips at all anymore. Had several episodes where the bullet went in and never passed through, so you don't get much of a blood trail. We had several really bad instances where the bullet exploded on initial impact. One buck in particular was shot at close range, 7 mag nosler accubond I believe, the white tipped ones. It removed a basketball size patched off his chest and he didn't die initially. The guy stayed put and didn't know the buck wasn't dead. No internal fragmentation whatsoever. But that's at speed way beyond supersonic, he had em loaded up hot and moving. With the 6.5, speeds are way better suited for terminal affect. Around here it's either wide open country or thick as hell and you don't want one running off right at dark!

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                • rickOshay
                  Warrior
                  • Apr 2012
                  • 784

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Lonehill View Post
                  The outfitter I guide for doesn't allow poly/ballistic tips at all anymore.
                  Try the Nosler Partition in either 100 gr or 125 gr.

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                  • tmax264
                    Unwashed
                    • Jan 2013
                    • 21

                    #10
                    I've never had a problem with NBT's "blowing up" as long as they were run at reasonable speeds. At Grendel speeds I think it's a good match. I surely wouldn't put a 100gr NBT in my 264WM at 32-3300 but at 2775 muzzle in a Grendel I'll run the risk.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lonehill View Post
                      The outfitter I guide for doesn't allow poly/ballistic tips at all anymore.
                      With all due respect for the outfitter you work for, he could use a better understanding of bullet construction and performance. There are plastic tipped bullets that are designed to fragment and penetrate very little and there are plastic tipped bullets that will shoot all the way through an elephant. It isn't plastic tipped or not that makes the difference, it is the bullet design and construction.

                      Below I have pictured a Speer 6.5mm 120 grain Hot Core pointed soft point bullet. With this bullet driven at high velocity from my 6.5 STW it will typically penetrate six inches or less on the shoulder of a deer. At 3,450 fps it will blow a two foot diameter entrance hole and may or may not penetrate the shoulder of even a light white tail deer. Your outfitter would allow this.

                      Next to the Speer is a Barnes 9.3mm 250 grain TTSX, I've seen this bullet shoot all the way through cape buffalo, hippopotamus, elephant, giraffe, and lengthwise through eland, a 1,200 to 2,000 pound antelope, the largest in Africa. I shoot this from my 93x62 and it is decisive on anything that walks North America or Europe and adequate for anything on earth. Your outfitter would not allow this.

                      Prohibiting plastic tipped bullets simply does not make any sense. But I understand, he's an outfitter not a ballistics expert. I've also worked as a guide and hunted with a lot of guides, outfitters, and professional hunters. I've heard a lot of incorrect information information but always complied with the guides or outfitters recommendations even when I knew better ways. For this one there are plenty of non tipped bullets I could use that would get the job done, but he may be prohibiting the very best bullets for the job.
                      Last edited by Guest; 05-05-2014, 01:34 PM.

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                      • Double Naught Spy
                        Chieftain
                        • Sep 2013
                        • 2560

                        #12
                        With the 6.5 Grendel, the 123 SST bullet is pretty much optimum. There are trade offs with anything, the Barnes TSX may perform better when used at close range and shot through heavy muscle and bone, but will fail to open properly even a medium long range. Bullets that open quickly, like the Nosler Ballistic tip, may come completely apart, loosing mass and fail to penetrate deeply when a close range steep angle shot is taken. The 123SST seems to get the job done up close and far away. I've shot quite a few head of game with the bullet now, only recovered one that stayed in the animal, but all have perfumed well and the furthest I've had an animal go after the shot is 15 yards.
                        Mine gets the job done, but I have yet to recover an intact bullet. Either I have through and throughs or a bullet that fragments into pieces, and I suspect the through and throughs involve bullets that are coming apart by the time they exit.

                        I am glad that they have "perfumed" well. I guess that is one way of saying that they don't stink. I try not to smell the recovered bullets if I can help it. :-)
                        Kill a hog. Save the planet.
                        My videos - https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

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                        • NugginFutz
                          Chieftain
                          • Aug 2013
                          • 2622

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
                          I am glad that they have "perfumed" well. I guess that is one way of saying that they don't stink. I try not to smell the recovered bullets if I can help it. :-)
                          Yeah - I saw that too, and was wondering if that was a new "Green" prerequisite for hunting ammo. (Either to aid in tracking a runner to leave a sweet smelling carcass?)
                          If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

                          Comment

                          • Lonehill
                            Bloodstained
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 83

                            #14
                            I fully agree stokesrj. I'm afraid he let a couple bad experiences set the rules. The ones I saw were poor shots to begin with that should never have been taken. I've absolutely seen it all when it comes to hunters!! You can't even imagine. Most aren't riflemen for starters. Now Kansas is allowing the use of ANY centerfire on deer, no minimum grain weight. Anything but FMJ. Used to be we had 100gn min and min dia. of .243 . Lots of 55gn v-max getting used now. Makes you cringe a little, and you gotta wonder to yourself when you come across a winter kill carcass if it was bonepiled by a weekender with an AR. I'm gonna give the 123 SST a go and see how it does.
                            Last edited by Lonehill; 05-06-2014, 04:27 AM. Reason: Beer can hit the mouse

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
                              Mine gets the job done, but I have yet to recover an intact bullet. Either I have through and throughs or a bullet that fragments into pieces, and I suspect the through and throughs involve bullets that are coming apart by the time they exit.

                              I am glad that they have "perfumed" well. I guess that is one way of saying that they don't stink. I try not to smell the recovered bullets if I can help it. :-)

                              I've only recovered this one. The photo was taken just before the smell test

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