Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

[ah1whiskey]

my guess would be the DOD is stalling cause to be "optimal" they will need a new weapon system as a primary to shoot the 6.5 with a long OAL that would be a bit too long to fit the current mags.

a steel core 6.5 grendel bullet with the same drag / oal as the 140 gr would be "super " from a LMG, like a 6.5 SAW.

the current administration is too busy giving away billions to islamics who want to kill americans and spending more billions on tapping our phones to be bothered with little things like better ammo and arms for lowly grunts.

[JASmith]

All too true.

That acknowledged, there are technical arguments suggesting that a 6.5 with the Grendel/AK head/rim diameter and appropriate overall length would make a very competitive machine gun in roles currently filled by the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds. Decent velocities would need to be attainable too. For example we would probably need to s 2800+ fps for the steel-core / tracer round in the 6.5 - 7 gram range and 2700+ for the same style in 8 - 8.5 gram bullets

The cartridge would very quickly find its way into the designated marksman / sharpshooter role. One could forecast good chances that the cartridge would find applications in at least some mounted weaponry because of the higher round count for the intermediate cartridge.

Why? We already know the Grendel long range ballistics are at least as good as those for the standard 7.62 NATO ball round. The slightly stretched version would make the comparison even better.

[stanc]

my guess would be the DOD is stalling cause to be "optimal" they will need a new weapon system as a primary to shoot the 6.5 with a long OAL that would be a bit too long to fit the current mags.

I think they want to wait and see whether or not cased-telescoped ammo technology proves to be viable, before they spend $$$ to field another conventional, brass-cased round and weapons to fire it.

Cartridges like the AMU's .264 USA are nearly as long as the 7.62 NATO round, so they definitely would be incompatible with M4 and M16 variants. That isn't really an issue, though, because historically they have nearly always adopted new rifles when adopting a new cartridge. The only exception which comes to mind is the .58 Rimfire, adopted 150 years ago for use in Civil War muzzleloaders converted to breechloading rifles.

a steel core 6.5 grendel bullet with the same drag / oal as the 140 gr would be "super " from a LMG, like a 6.5 SAW.

Yeah, I'm sure it would.

the current administration is too busy giving away billions to islamics who want to kill americans and spending more billions on tapping our phones to be bothered with little things like better ammo and arms for lowly grunts.

Actually, it has nothing to do with this, or any other, administration. It's the military leadership -- not the President or Congress -- who chooses the calibers and types of small arms to equip our soldiers.

[montana]

Actually, it has nothing to do with this, or any other, administration. It's the military leadership -- not the President or Congress -- who chooses the calibers and types of small arms to equip our soldiers.[/QUOTE]

Not exactly true. I believe it was President Kennedy who helped fast track the AR-15 AKA M-16 into our military services via Robert McNamara. I may be way off on this since my memory isn't what it use to be.

[stanc]

Actually, it has nothing to do with this, or any other, administration. It's the military leadership -- not the President or Congress -- who chooses the calibers and types of small arms to equip our soldiers.

Not exactly true. I believe it was President Kennedy who helped fast track the AR-15 AKA M-16 into our military services via Robert McNamara. I may be way off on this since my memory isn't what it use to be.

<sigh> If you insist on nitpicking, yes, there was an exception to the rule half a century ago, when the Office of the Secretary of Defense under JFK did direct the US Army to buy the M16 rifle.

However, that was a unique case, wherein manufacturing problems kept the M14 rifle from being fielded as planned, and a small quantity of M16 rifles were purchased to make up for the M14 shortage.

I'll rephrase: It has nothing to do with the administration. It's the military leadership -- not the President or Congress -- who normally chooses the calibers and types of small arms to equip our soldiers.

[ah1whiskey]

being over 18 trillion in debt has everything to do with it.

[JASmith]

I just ran across a nice history discussion that helps illustrate where we have been, where we are, and even a bit about the future.

[stanc]

At long last there is a factory 6.5 Grendel load that could be used as an EPR surrogate for testing some aspects of Grendel .mil applications. Very expensive, though.

https://underwoodammo.com/product/rifle-ammo/6-5-grendel-105-grain-match-solid-flash-tip/

[Azgeek]

The Army just renewed the secrecy order on the Gila Defense Systems rifle technology. It eats away at my soul that I can't discuss how easy it would be to turn the 6.5 grendel into a wrecking machine. The Army is clearly going down a different path based on all the information posted here. In fact a recent letter from the undersecretary of the Army to the patent office states their work on armor defeating technology predates ours by two years is more mature and proven. As such they won't even test ours. Stinks to high heaven but its all coming to a head this year. Here's a teaser. We just did a level one GDS enhancement for FN on their 57x28 pistol round. Only shot at clay to prove a point around soft target effectiveness.

GDS Enhanced (fresh clay):

57_enhanced.JPG

Stock FN ammo (repack clay):

57_normal.JPG

[LR1955]

The Army just renewed the secrecy order on the Gila Defense Systems rifle technology. It eats away at my soul that I can't discuss how easy it would be to turn the 6.5 grendel into a wrecking machine. The Army is clearly going down a different path based on all the information posted here. In fact a recent letter from the undersecretary of the Army to the patent office states their work on armor defeating technology predates ours by two years is more mature and proven. As such they won't even test ours. Stinks to high heaven but its all coming to a head this year. Here's a teaser. We just did a level one GDS enhancement for FN on their 57x28 pistol round. Only shot at clay to prove a point around soft target effectiveness.

GDS Enhanced (fresh clay):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11929[/ATTACH]

Stock FN ammo (repack clay):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11930[/ATTACH]

"The Army is going down a different path based on all the information posted here."????

Something tells me that the Army isn't making its decisions on small arms ammo based on the Grendel forum.

Lets see something proving the Army or DoD has implemented a 'secrecy order' on Gila ammo.

Lets see something proving the Army is making decisions on small arms ammunition based on 'all the information posted here.'

If you say something like "it is a secret and we can't tell you", then you are violating it by posting your pictures. Those would also be restricted if DoD somehow classified your technology.

LR55

[Azgeek]

No the Army is not making decisions based on the Grendel forum. I was referring to the Army/DOD public domain information discussed here. And yes the

[Azgeek]

Army is going down a different path then we went. That was my point here if you simply go to our web site and read! I said the "rifle" technology is under secrecy order - not the pistol. I'm not violating anything by discussing pistol technology. Call the patent office if you want the specifics or you can write to Acting Assistant Under Secretary of the Army, Steffanie B Easter for details on the situation.

[LR1955]

Army is going down a different path then we went. That was my point here if you simply go to our web site and read! I said the "rifle" technology is under secrecy order - not the pistol. I'm not violating anything by discussing pistol technology. Call the patent office if you want the specifics or you can write to Acting Assistant Under Secretary of the Army, Steffanie B Easter for details on the situation.

AZG:

I went to your web site. There were two items, one was a USMC test plan and the other was a draft test result on your 9mm pistol ammunition.

Nothing on DoD putting some sort of secrecy requirement on your company. Nothing on any sort of rifle ammo technology.

So, how about a link to what ever it is you want us to read?

Also a patent number would be good. We can then look up your product and see why it is so unique.

LR55

[Azgeek]

I'll have to get you a USPTO filing number since as you can see from the letter, an actual patent has not been granted. The likelihood of GDS omitting the best of the technology we developed is pretty much ZERO! We will continue to fight it out for as long as it takes. Notice the date on the correspondence. We only got this response a month ago. Now that the FBI, two watchdog groups, the patent office, the IG and now the IRS is involved, maybe they will take us seriously.

Just like Bill Alexander's experience, we are just the latest example of this same corruption!

GDS_Army.pdf

[Azgeek]

Oh as far as the web site. Its in the state its in because they nearly drove us out of business. It represents where we were almost three years ago. We have since adopted the pistol technology to 40 S&W, 38/357 revolvers and 22lr. You will not find anything about our rifle technology pursuant to the order. I will say it can extend the use of current delivery systems and calibers by 5-7 years at virtually no cost to the taxpayer!