Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

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  • Originally posted by Trooper View Post
    At least someone is developing a polymer case. It makes no sense to leave brass on the battlefield. Polymer is lower cost and lighter weight. Even against aluminum or steel cases.
    Did you see the other thread about PCP ammo? Their semi-polymer cases are a total failure.

    Comment


    • Well, I can only hope. It is such a waste to leave brass on the battlefield. Steel would work as would aluminum.

      BTW, I could not find the other thread. Is it in this forum or the one on ammo?
      Last edited by Guest; 01-18-2014, 01:03 AM.

      Comment

      • cory
        Chieftain
        • Jun 2012
        • 2985

        Originally posted by Trooper View Post
        Well, I can only hope. It is such a waste to leave brass on the battlefield. Steel would work as would aluminum.

        BTW, I could not find the other thread. Is it in this forum or the one on ammo?
        I believe the thread referenced a link to a review at 8541 Tactical. You should be able to find it there.
        "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

        Comment

        • Tony Williams

          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
          One thing. With comparison to the .308, the 6.5x55 Swede is the standard.
          Why?

          The 6.5 x 55 with a modern 140 grain bullet would greatly outperform 7.62mm at long range, but there would be no saving in size or weight and not a lot in recoil. The Army would never go for that - not enough advantages. A c.6.5mm round which matches the 7.62 x 51 M80's long-range performance while achieving significant savings in weight and recoil would be a lot more attractive (and even that won't be an easy sell).

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tony Williams View Post
            Why?

            The 6.5 x 55 with a modern 140 grain bullet would greatly outperform 7.62mm at long range, but there would be no saving in size or weight and not a lot in recoil. The Army would never go for that - not enough advantages. A c.6.5mm round which matches the 7.62 x 51 M80's long-range performance while achieving significant savings in weight and recoil would be a lot more attractive (and even that won't be an easy sell).
            I am going by Arthur Browns comments as he is one of the big proponents of the 6.5mm in the US. http://www.eabco.com/6.5_mm_cartridges.html
            In their opinion, the 6.5mm is the perfect round. But it does not gain in advantage if pushed more than 2700 fps. In their comparison, using the 6.5x55 Swede as the standard to measure against, it goal was to match a bullet weighting 140 gn going 2500 to 2700 fps out of the barrel. With those features, the 6.5mm easily matches the .308 with a 192 gn bullet out to at least 700 meters. Rounds that meet that standard are the .260 Rem, the 6.5mm BRM (based on the .30-30 cartridge), the 6.5mm Creedmoor, and maybe the 6.5x47 Laupa. With a 140 gn bullet the Grendel comes out of the barrel at 2000 fps, giving about 80% of the .308 energy at 700 meters.

            The point is that if we would want to match the .308 then it is going to take a much larger casing. But if we are willing to do most, but not all, of what the .308 (7.62x51) does then the 6.5 Grendel is a good candidate for the GPC.

            For long range shooting at magnum velocities, the .338 family of rounds (8.6x63NM, 8.6x70LM) give similar BC of .600 (like the 6.5mm) with less barrel wear.

            Maybe it is time to move to the 6.5mm for GPC for the common infantry rifle and designated marksman with one lite MG (SAW). But move to the 8.6mm (NM?) for long range sniping and the medium MG (M240).

            Comment


            • I think we all agree that the 6.5 caliber is an excellent hunting caliber.

              The caliber has good potential for creating a weapon system superior to those based on the 7.62 caliber when light materiel and personnel are the targets. The Grendel can be shown to be superior in many of the roles, particularly the LMG.

              The challenge revolves around the resistance to changes in caliber when major breakthroughs in firearms technology are "just around the corner." BTW, these breakthroughs have been imminent since the late 1950's making the 60+ year run somewhat a record for a major new technology.

              Hence, Tony & his debate community have been searching for and working to invent a caliber / case combination that might have enough superiority to compel a change in basic firearms cartridge in one or more major military forces. The Grendel case is, to date, the closest to satisfying the goal.

              The order is a tall one and a noble goal. I have participated in the discussions, and will continue to do so off and on as time permits.

              Comment

              • cory
                Chieftain
                • Jun 2012
                • 2985

                Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                ...With a 140 gn bullet the Grendel comes out of the barrel at 2000 fps, giving about 80% of the .308 energy at 700 meters...
                That MV is incorrect. I can safely get 2400 fps out of my 24" that seems to be on the slower side of other 24" barrels. 2225fps+ out of a 16" is a safe beat in my opinion. I'll be confirming that velocity this spring with my 16" Lilja barrel that should be en route soon.

                Will a longer max COL due to magazines, those MVs can be significantly improved.


                Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                ...For long range shooting at magnum velocities, the .338 family of rounds (8.6x63NM, 8.6x70LM) give similar BC of .600 (like the 6.5mm) with less barrel wear.

                Maybe it is time to move to the 6.5mm for GPC for the common infantry rifle and designated marksman with one lite MG (SAW). But move to the 8.6mm (NM?) for long range sniping and the medium MG (M240).
                I agree!
                "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                  [6.5mm] has good potential for creating a weapon system superior to those based on the 7.62 caliber when light materiel and personnel are the targets. The Grendel can be shown to be superior in many of the roles, particularly the LMG.
                  Perhaps. I'm still waiting to see test data that confirms it.
                  Hence, Tony & his debate community have been searching for and working to invent a caliber / case combination that might have enough superiority to compel a change in basic firearms cartridge in one or more major military forces. The Grendel case is, to date, the closest to satisfying the goal.
                  6.5 Grendel is the closest production round, but there are some experimental 6.5mm cartridges that reportedly are superior. These are essentially "stretched" versions of 6.5 Grendel. One such is a 6.5x45 being developed by Harrison.
                  Last edited by stanc; 01-19-2014, 03:49 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by stanc View Post
                    Perhaps. I'm still waiting to see test data that confirms it.

                    6.5 Grendel is the closest production round, but there are some experimental 6.5mm cartridges that reportedly are superior. These are essentially "stretched" versions of 6.5 Grendel. One such is a 6.5x45 being developed by Harrison.
                    The Grendel was designed to be 6.5x39. Was that to pattern after the 7.62x39? Does the 6.5x45 work as well in M4/M16 mags?

                    Comment

                    • stanc
                      Banned
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 3430

                      Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                      The Grendel was designed to be 6.5x39. Was that to pattern after the 7.62x39?
                      AFAIK, 6.5 Grendel is an evolution of the 6.5 PPC, which was derived from the .220 Russian, which is a necked-down 7.62x39.
                      Does the 6.5x45 work as well in M4/M16 mags?
                      Not even. Due to OAL of circa 2.6 inches, the 6.5x45 cartridges require a longer magazine, and therefore a bigger rifle like the DPMS GII or FN SCAR-H.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by stanc View Post
                        AFAIK, 6.5 Grendel is an evolution of the 6.5 PPC, which was derived from the .220 Russian, which is a necked-down 7.62x39.

                        Not even. Due to OAL of circa 2.6 inches, the 6.5x45 cartridges require a longer magazine, and therefore a bigger rifle like the DPMS GII or FN SCAR-H.
                        How much more energy is developed by the 6.5x45 than the 6.5x39?

                        Comment

                        • KentuckyBuddha
                          Warrior
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 972

                          I was wondering how much LESS it would be. : )

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                            How much more energy is developed by the 6.5x45 than the 6.5x39?
                            and

                            Originally posted by KentuckyBuddha View Post
                            I was wondering how much LESS it would be. : )
                            We need to know two things: Case Volume and Max Operating Pressure.

                            There are a lot of other details, but these two items will tell us a lot.

                            Further, I think the 6.5 x 45 is based on the Carcano case, which has the same head diameter as the Grendel. This might be OK if one is going to a new platform designed to handle 55,000 to 65,000 psi in that case.

                            I haven't participated in the discussions for some time, but some attention should be paid to starting with the 25 Remington or 30 Remington case. This one can give the same volume as the 6.5 x 45 but with the same head diameter as the 6.8 SPC. It gets this with a somewhat longer case, but one that can still function within the 2.8" length of the 7.62x51.

                            The round count in a magazine of the same depth will be greater than either the 7.62x51 and the 6.5x45 and will likely be enough to make it attractive.

                            Comment

                            • KentuckyBuddha
                              Warrior
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 972

                              I thought for a second it might have been the idea of giving the 5.56 case a go at 6.5 much as in 300blk which would obviously lose the option of the length of bullet you have in Grendel and would not be the same capacity or burn efficiency. I don't know much about Carcano except related to, sadly...JFK, but it seems an ok round if you had good bullet shapes in it, which the Italians never did.

                              Comment


                              • I may have mistyped, there is a 6.5x45 Czech that comes closer with about 43 gr of water versus the 51 for the Carcano.

                                Nonetheless, this helps point out the importance of getting the basic details to support informed speculation because information-free guessing is truly wild!!!

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