6.5 Grendel as a DM/Sniper Cartridge

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  • LRRPF52
    Super Moderator
    • Sep 2014
    • 8569

    6.5 Grendel as a DM/Sniper Cartridge

    I had an interesting little talk with some gentlemen at this year's Sniper Adventure Challenge up in Wyoming. It commonly sees 2-man teams from all over the Nation, and many are current or former Recon and Scout Sniper Marines, Rangers, SF, LE SRT's, or professional endurance racers.

    Anyway, quite a few teams had 6.5 Grendel's for both their carbines and long guns, as the competition requires that one team member carry a long gun for distance targets, and the other carries a carbine for closer ranges, while both carry sidearms, in addition to many other essential items on a mandatory packing list.

    The competitors then embark on a long distance land navigation course using only map and compass, while encountering different challenges at some of the points along the way. Some of the challenges involve shooting, water crossing, obstacles, log carries, problem-solving, escape and evasion, lock picking, mountaineering, decryption of cyphers, foreign weapons familiarity and employment, scenario-based events (this year was an ambush at a vehicle check point, with a mission to protect their driver in a force on force encounter using high end airsoft guns, masks, etc.), and a tractor tire flip challenge (with steel rim).

    If you finished the mandatory check points and challenges of this competition, you ended up walking over 32 miles in the mountains, with kit.





    Anyway, one of the teams was composed of 2 formally trained USMC Scout Snipers, one of whom won the sprint division with another Recon Marine last year, and another who was an instructor at one of the Scout Sniper Schools. They both were carrying 6.5 Grendel's, one a 16", the other a 24". Comments were that it would make a lot of sense to adopt the cartridge for the sniping community, since it is so small, and leave the .308 guns to the side.

    Here's one of the shooting challenges, where the teams had to locate and engage small steel targets from uncomfortable positions, starting with the carbine, then long gun, then run down the hill and shoot pistol at steel at close range.



    I'm thinking about the logistics again, but many units have grown accustomed to getting M118LR and only running that in their M110's, without having to ever use M80. We all agreed that we felt cheated humping around big, fat, heavy bolt guns that spit out lesser BC pills, when we could have had a room-clearing capable carbine that also reaches out past the supersonic range of M118LR, or at least matches it from a much shorter barrel, in an M4 platform no less.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com
  • BjornF16
    Chieftain
    • Jun 2011
    • 1825

    #2
    Here is another perspective on the event (by the way, I love Hill People Gear gear)...

    Our involvement with Competition Dynamics/Thunder Beast (CD) and the Sniper Adventure Challenge (SAC) started at a party on our first Shot Show. We spent most of our time talking mountain biking with Ray.   Shortly after Cody Carroll who was with CD at the time reached out hoping we would donate some Recon Kit Bags for their staff use during the SAC. We obliged, and have been donating stuff for the prize table since.   Every year we saw them at Shot and every year they thanked us and also let us know that what would really help was staffing at the actual event. I was supposed to be there last year, but due to the location and timing I just couldn’t make it work. This year was different. From the first I let Zac know that if we were going to be doing a stage that we wanted it to be a stage that reinforced what we are about, which is good back country travel.   Zac was on board, and just asked that we give them a few options. Our favorite and the one Zac and Ray chose, was a hydration stage. Basically, you process water from a natural source and drink it.   Our thinking was that it would reinforce the importance of hydration and having that capability, and more importantly make them hydrate some, kind of a test with an ulterior motive.   As it turned out that particular challenge took place during the night and weather was mild to boot throughout so hydration was not as huge a factor. Although over the course of the event two different guys needed IVs for fluids.   One I diagnosed as hypernatremia, although the onsite Doc disagreed partially because we got different information from the team.   He felt it was a combination of factors. Although when I saw the team again at the end of the next day the guy had added in electrolyte tabs and wasn’t just doing straight water, and once he started that he was pretty much fine.   The other guy I didn’t see. Talking to Ray and the Doc they have seen leaps and bounds in the awareness of hydration, electrolyte consumption, and nutrition from the contestants each year.    About a week and a half prior to the event, Corey from DDI reach out to us, hoping to get a couple of Recon Kit Bags, which he had just heard about. I spent awhile talking to Corey about things in general and also the event.   Corey came across as a very good guy, and still does, and I asked him what packs they were going to run.   When I found out, and no I won’t mention the pack, I took pity on him and offered one of our packs. He jumped at the chance as he had discovered that while the pack was great for around town and airports, the belt and suspension just didn’t cut it in the back country. My immediate thought was the Umlindi with a belt, but as we talked more and he spent time on our website researching over the course of a couple of days we settled on the Ute. The way the SAC was set up this years, and it sounds like in years past, there are 3 shooting stages on Friday, and 2 new ones and one of the original ones on Saturday. Since Corey was doing Sprint Class he only had the 3 on Friday.   Other than the shooting stages the rifles were just extra weight and bulk to carry, and the hands were better off free for trekking poles, map and compass, and challenges.   Therefore Corey felt the extra height of the Ute would be a better bet.   Unfortunately, due to one thing and another Corey got the packs the day before he left for Wyoming and his partner Jason got his the night before the event in Wyoming. However, both took the time to watch the videos prior to that and got things dialed in pretty well, and each time I saw them throughout the day the packs were more and more dialed in. Due to family commitments, Jason showed up late on Thursday, competed slept on Friday night and left so I didn’t get feedback from him after the event, but he liked it when I saw him during the course. Corey and I will see if he can jump on here and provide feedback and answer questions, said it was the most comfortable pack he had ever used, and proceeded to buy or try to buy one of everything I had with me. He also talked the pack up enough that friend of his that works for and is sponsored by Hornady, wanted to take a look, and ended up setting himself up for another event this weekend. I should have feedback on the pack and that event in a couple of weeks.   The following is my take on the event and my observations.   I arrived on Thursday afternoon, and was gratified to see that all the Recons we sent 3 years ago are not only still in use, but highly prized. Over the course of the weekend I sold the rest of the Recons I brought to other support staff.   Thursday afternoon we got briefed on the individual stages that we would man, and also safety and other information and then turned loose.   We had to be back on Friday morning for the kick off.   Being a gear and gun guy it was pretty interesting watching folks get ready Friday morning.   The predominate pack was some variation of an Eberlestock or knock-off thereof, although I also saw several Osprey packs. There were also a few folks running belt kit with an H-harness and some running basically large camelback style packs with belt kit.   A few teams were really dialed in with nice tight loads, and others, well no so much, as the event proceeded the number of nice tight loads diminished, which resulted in obvious pain and discomfort for some folks.   I think that was in part due to the complexity of the packs, or how well they actually worked to control and stabilize a load.   Each team had a required gear list (seen here https://competition-dynamics.com/sniper-adventure-challenge-2014/rules.php ), but other than that it was up to them the what and how of things.   Carbines were primarily ARs in 5.56, but also 6.5 and 308. I did see one SCARH, and one FN bullpup.   Rifles were primarily bolt guns with a smattering of ARs, 6.5 and 308, and one each M1a and G3.   I don’t think I saw any bolt guns in the factory stock it was either McMillan or chassis systems from what I saw with AIs being the most common chassis.   Contestants were a mix of Mil (current and former), LEO, and civilians.   Over all everyone was very pleasant, friendly, and very grateful for the staffs support. I have worked two state IDPA matches now, and was very glad to see none of the gamer crowd was present. Everyone staid positive, and most could muster a smile.   There was really only one team, where the rifle guy seemed to be pissed off the whole event.   At the starting mark everyone proceeded on the road from one ranch house towards the next, and picked up a log along the way, which they carried for the last mile.   From the start mark the different strategies were obvious some of the teams just hauled butt, while others sat down and planned out their route. Same with the logs, some just grabbed the closest one, and others chose a log.   In general, those who chose did far better.   From the second farm house it was time to start the off trail/orienteering portion of the first mission (endurance teams had 3, day/night/day, and sprint teams 1).   The first mandatory point was at the top of the ridge north of the house, and the endurance teams would cross that ridge twice and in some cases even three times.   Due to my time building trail I have some very definite thoughts on route selection, which usually involves a nice easy contour up and around.   Most of the teams followed the Evan route selection method, which is what is the shortest point from A to B and hopefully it involves the steepest slope available.   Basically, there was two different basins you could take, one was short, and looked deceptively mild from the bottom, however, a bit of attention or even experience would have noted that it just got steeper and steeper, with several thick bands of brush. The other one that looked to be twice as long was a continuous contour up, and actually placed you right at the point, from what I gather, when you got to the top.   The steeper route chewed up lots of folks, but some just calmly walked up it with no stops. Those were the teams to watch.   From the time they got up on the ridge to when they came down the other side they were out of sight other than on spot tracker. I spent the rest of the morning and early afternoon hanging out in the jeep on several high spots north of the ridge, and giving reports on team locations as a way to verify spot data.   Mid-afternoon I meet up with the other guy who was running the shooting stage with me and we opened for business.   The stage involved finding 6 targets, 8” or 9” diamonds, on a hill across the valley and then engaging them. They ranged in distance from just under 400 to 660.   They had as much time as they wanted to find them, range and dope them, and otherwise get ready.   They then had 6 minutes to shoot them from the point they were behind the rifle and ready to go.   The best that I saw was 9 out of 12 hits.   What caused the most misses was wind. The wind on one side of the valley was completely independent from the wind on our side.   Most of the misses were due to poor wind calls, some appeared to be to me trigger control issues, and in some cases they just couldn’t find the targets from the shooting position, which leads me to my next observation.   Communication was critical both while finding the targets, but also while shooting them.   The rifle was the only shooter on this stage so the carbine guy was the spotter. Some teams worked great with exact easy to follow descriptions on how to find the next target and range/dope.   Others had good communication, but the directions were so vague it was almost impossible to follow.   Finally, for some teams communication was not in vocabulary.   The second observation was how hard it was for some of the teams to relate what they found during the scouting stage to what they were seeing from the shooting position.   They would burn whole minutes trying to find a target from the prone, that they knew where it was, but you had to kneel or stand to see it.   They would just lay there and search.   The team that hit the most, walked up determined they couldn’t seen all 6 from prone, and just said I am going to shoot these 5 prone, and then go to a supported kneeling for the 6 th one, and did it.   My final take away is that I remain convinced that long range hunting is not a wise decision.   It also appeared to me that in general those with bipods where a bit quicker getting into position than those with a pack.   The sweet spot was also with one side up against a yucca, but only a couple of shooters went that route.   Shooting was closed at 8pm, or basically dusk. After a very quick dinner I headed out to my night position. During the night the teams had several challenges to complete before heading up the Ridge again.   I have already described mine, and the one next to me was a creek “crawl”. They had to get themselves, all their gear including rifles down a creek (in the water) and under 6 strips of flagging without breaking the flagging.   Only 5 teams chose to do that particular challenge. Most decided to stay dry and move on.   Of the three teams that did it two, just gutted it out by stripping down and carrying their packs and handing them under the flagging. The other three showed some though and bagged (contractor bags) or burritoed their gear (ponchos), and let them float while they just walked along and ducked.   The second method was by far the best and fastest, but in either case it burned a lot of time to get undressed down the creek dry their feet and legs re-dress and drive on.   My challenge was welcome as it was probably the simplest of any of them.   Most folks were using Katadyns, a few had tabs, and I saw a couple of sawyers. On katadyn broke and it was clear a lot of folks really had no clue on how to use their filter.   I have to say the amount of pressure exerted on the Sawyer bags to get water pushed through would make me nervous to rely on them in the back country.   Several teams using tabs chose to not drink (bonus points as it ended up being written), but most folks did drink, and more than a few took the opportunity to refill partially empty or mostly empty bladders.   One guy did have a hose pull loose from his bladder, when pulling it out of his pack, but was able to get it reattached.   I got out of their around 230 and crashed by the Jeep in a meadow at one of the ranch houses until 6 when it was time to be back at it.   I spent the morning enjoying the sun, and running a couple of teams through.   That afternoon for some reason they decided I had done enough and I just hung out with Corey from DDI and Jayden and Ryan from Hornady talking gear and what not.   Unfortunately, due to early morning commitments on Monday I decided the best course of action was to leave Douglas as soon as I got up, and get home to GJ.   I am bummed that it worked out that way, but it did. It was a great experience, and I hope to be there again next year.   If you have any interest in doing one of these events, but aren’t sure volunteer. They need help, and my understanding is you get to do one of their matches the next year for free.   Even if you don’t want to do one of these events it is a cool experience.   If I had to recommend some things I though in general that could use work, but were overlooked in guys prep it would be: Spend time learning how to read country at a distance both using a map and visually Learn to talk folks onto a target using simple easy to find landmarks Know your gear front and back and how it is going to work for you. I would recommend maximizing for carrying ability and comfort, and not just how it carries a rifle.   Know compression and understand how to make it your friend and not your enemy.   




    The HPG AAR includes comments about wind reading and bullet drift. I would think the Grendel would have helped in this regard.
    Last edited by BjornF16; 09-12-2014, 11:47 PM.
    LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
    Defend the Constitution and our 2A Rights!

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    • txgunner00
      Chieftain
      • Mar 2011
      • 2070

      #3
      That looks like an ass kicker and a lot of fun.
      NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

      "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

      George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

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      • LRRPF52
        Super Moderator
        • Sep 2014
        • 8569

        #4
        + 1 on the Hill People Gear. The SAC Staff find the Recon very useful since it can carry your pistol radio, Surefire, multi-tool, chem lights, map, GPS, and pens while riding a dirt bike or ATV in this type of terrain. I noticed practically everyone on staff was wearing them last year.



        Here are some more pics from previous events:






        SAC is an excellent event to further test already proven gear, but more importantly, test the intestinal fortitude of a well-trained team. If you haven't really prepared for this type of event the year prior as a team, you're going to have a rough time. It's basically a massive suckfest designed to test mental strength and adaptation to unforeseen challenges.
        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

        www.AR15buildbox.com

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        • Slappy
          Warrior
          • Feb 2014
          • 711

          #5
          I know what my 24 inch rifle feels like and I sure as heck would not want to tote that 32? miles??? those guys have more metal than I!! Looks like a fine day in the field and a nice exercise for those who entered. I also think the 6.5 Grendel would make a good all around shooter. Went to a long range shoot a while back and held my own with the big guns until I gave out and also ran out of scope, but if I would have had an MOA rail I would have been right there till the end. Thanks for posting, sometimes I forget the extra and the training that goes on all the time. Probably because there is no way I could do that anymore, out of sight out of mind deals. BANG BANG!! Go Grendel!!

          Comment

          • stanc
            Banned
            • Apr 2011
            • 3430

            #6
            So, how did the Grendel-armed teams fare in the event?

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            • cst
              Warrior
              • Jan 2014
              • 239

              #7
              awesome! I never shoot my M40A3 anymore!

              Comment

              • LRRPF52
                Super Moderator
                • Sep 2014
                • 8569

                #8
                The shooting isn't a huge contributor to points at SAC, but can still certainly help you place higher than others. It's definitely more of a suckfest than anything else, but one where you have to be thinking on your feet at all times. I know at least one of the teams with a Grendel placed in the top 5.

                Last year, the Ares Armor guys won the Sprint Class race, and they had a Grendel for their carbine, but anyone will tell you that caliber selection for SAC isn't a huge factor, other than weight. Bring a magnum, and you're just killing yourself with weapon and ammo weight.

                The Marine Scout Snipers that both had Grendel's were hitting their rifle targets very well compared to a lot of others, but skill is a much bigger factor in that than anything else. Weight is where the 6.5 Grendel really beats .308 for a system that actually needs to be carried day after day, since hit probability is higher, but recoil is so much less, while ammo weight and space are significantly lesser.

                It's a good DM/Semi-Auto Sniper System in the AR15 for sure. If I were configuring my rifles for SAC, there would be a lot of carbon fiber involved, low profile receivers with no further malf assist, JP Lo-Mass system, silent captured spring, lightweight stock, and compact optics.

                For the rifle, I would go no longer than 20".
                Last edited by LRRPF52; 09-22-2014, 03:04 AM.
                NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                www.AR15buildbox.com

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                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  #9
                  Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                  It's a good DM/Semi-Auto Sniper System in the AR15 for sure. If I were configuring my rifles for SAC, there would be a lot of carbon fiber involved, low profile receivers with no further malf assist, JP Lo-Mass system, silent captured spring, lightweight stock, and compact optics.

                  For the rifle, I would go no longer than 20".
                  To demo the caliber as a DM/SASS, I'm thinking a 6.5 Grendel version of this (except in the AR15 platform, of course):

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