THIS Is the Dedicated 65G Bullet I Want

[rickOshay]

I get where you're coming from there. However, I'd think you'd at least want to do limited testing to see how much of a hide like material made on the bullet opening. If it shows to be negligible, then you can say through limited testing we've shown the variable to have limited affects. However, you could come to find that it make s a drastic difference in what the "ideal" bullet should be.

I'm taking a shot in the dark here. Would it be possible to take some hide from a freshly killed deer this season and preserve in some fluid until the time of a test in the near future?

I agree that a few shots with selected bullets to compare results with and without hide would be helpful.

Anyone want to send me a tanned deer hide, or donate their leather jacket - I'll be happy to drape it over a gel.

[rickOshay]

We noticed that recovered 123gr SST looked exactly like the gel test 123gr SST in that impact velocity window, other than some minor pitting on the lead on the pill recovered from a deer, which even surprised Stokes.

LRRPF52 is referring to page 47 of the Handbook Volume 2

That said, I think there is merit to the proposition that we actually push for one of the other big name cartridge manufacturers to start cranking out an affordable load with a standard cup and core bullet. That would do a lot for the cartridge and the market, with another premium bullet to follow later on, since we have so many premium options right now.

Our options are limited when it comes to lead-free pills in the 80 to 100 gr range - which is the ideal range for all deer - see http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bulle...bullet-weight/

Given the velocity limitations of the shorter barreled Grendels - combined with the higher minimum velocities of the lead-free pills - lighter weight lead-free options are needed to give greater hunting reach.

[stanc]

...I think there is merit to the proposition that we actually push for one of the other big name cartridge manufacturers to start cranking out an affordable load with a standard cup and core bullet.

In the meantime, they can develop a high BC lightweight pill for the premium lines, with the Grendel specifically in mind, that would also upgrade the lightweight hunting bullets for the other 6.5mm cases. A .400+ G1 BC ~100gr hybrid ogive, long boat tail bonded bullet would be the most economical approach for a premium bullet I think, since solids take the price up significantly.

The introduction of Wolf steel case will likely see the barrel and bolt maker market respond to customer demand, which will trigger a response in US made brass ammo from Federal I think. That should be our focus.

It's not an "either or" situation. Pushing for lightweight, Grendel-specific GMX and/or TTSX bullets can be done without adversely affecting any campaign for lower cost, brass-cased ammo.

[bwaites]

as noob to 6.5grendel maybe a stupid question. Have you guys tried Swift Scirocco II? I have lot of good experience with that bullet (30cal 150gr) on accuracy and "stopping power" on Moose, white tails, roedeers and varmints like foxes and badgers. All except moose has stopped within 1m after getting hit. Mooses tend to go about 5-50m depending on shot placement. Well one moose I dropped with head shot and it dropped right there. On high speed impact bullet maintains it's weight pretty good.
Another thing is Wolf/Tula ammo. Lot of my friends on other side of big water do not shoot steel cased ammo in their AR's or AK's. Reasoning is that steel case ammo puts lot more pressure on bolt and locking lugs. That's because case does not expand as brass cases do. It's causing faster wear and tear on locking lugs which are most critical part of action when it comes to accuracy and reliability. Or maybe it's my innerself that prevents using anything coming from russia.

MKo,

There has been a lot of testing in the US of steel cased ammo, and what most of it has shown is that other parts wear out or fail before the steel case ammo has any real effect on barrel/bolt longevity. Here is one recent test: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

Though its not definitive by military testing requirements, it does give a pretty good idea of whats happening.

Most of the problems seem to be related to more fouling because the steel doesn't conform to the chamber (obdurate) as well as brass. Here's one discussing that issue: http://www.theboxotruth.com/educatio...mo-in-an-ar15/

Once again, its a mostly annecdotal article, but with pretty good controls.

Alexander Arms ran this ammo for several years before signing off on the OK for its use in his rifles. He ran both the lacquered and poly coatings and found the that lacquer was much less problematical.

PS. I hate the thought of running Russian stuff, too, but if they provide it cheap enough........

[Variable]

Meanwhile... back at the "expanding monometal with a decent BC and optomized for the Grendel" ranch.... I still want one.

[sneaky one]

ROS, I have a spare old leather coat here- need a few sq. ft of mtl. ?

What I have seen , from actual deer harvests from me, & beloved Grr- - in the Gmx 95-100 class.,, I would not worry of the on game results. The hide helps to start the expansion, yet 3-5"s in is where the death ray occurs, the explosion is nice & brutal,- then plows thru to at least 20" of penetration. The avg deer chest is 11-17" wide

I had a cheapo camera then- I took a few pics.. Now I have an I fone 5- great pics always

I am to try the 80 Gmx, & the 105 class of Gmx on game this fall.. 80 runs @ 3030 fps., the 105 can reach 2650 fps. The 74 Gmx hit 3200 in trials, safely. RL7 is fine.

[sneaky one]

Vari, u & Hanka need to let go of the fascination of these idiotically longer than available tips.. BC's don't register at close range.

No one here shoots deer at 600 yds. The tip is merely a fascination point anyway, it does aid in expansion, yet it's written down at feddy== the consumer likes the colors!

As for BC's- good lorde,,, let it go.. Only a few on here are good at long range shots. Hanka is in shotgun zone only in S Mn.= NO Grendel hunts in Southern Mn.= He loves his target shootsa. Tho...

The Gmx tip is fine , as is. The federal Fusion, not the Ford- it's fine also- the idea as a hunt pill does not always need a plastic tip.

I have tweaked them all - the plastic tips, it's not a needed component in a bullet design - I have pulled a few plastic tips out, they still expand as stated.

[cory]

I'd venture to say that the plastic tip will allow the bullet to expand ~100fps less than it would otherwise. Unless you drastically leave the tip open and kill the BC.

If I'm paying the price that these bullets are going to run, they're going to have to give at least a 0.400 BC.

We talk about BC at 300+ yds because we're normally discussing 16"+ barrels. In a 11.5" +- 1" barrel the BC can make a difference at a shorter distance.

Let's compare a 95gr 1.05" OAL 0.310 BC at 2750 fps to a 110gr 1.20" OAL 0.410 BC at 2600 fps.

The 95gr mono goes below 1800 fps at 365 yards with 785 ft*lbs.

The 110gr mono goes below 1800 fps at 415 yards with 790 ft*lbs.

Conclusion BC does matter.

[PA_Allen]

Thanks for all your thoughts and work on this guys. Really nice discussion here. I'll be glad to to perform some whitetail field tests with some once y'all get your design ironed out. It would be a tough job, but I'm willing to make the sacrifice.
A 100 TTSX with a higher BC and lower expansion threshold would seem to be the ideal Grendel hunting projectile.
In the mean time I'll keep shooting stuff with the 123 SSTs from the old group buy.
Best,
PA

[Variable]

Vari, u & Hanka need to let go of the fascination of these idiotically longer than available tips.. BC's don't register at close range.

No one here shoots deer at 600 yds. The tip is merely a fascination point anyway, it does aid in expansion, yet it's written down at feddy== the consumer likes the colors!

As for BC's- good lorde,,, let it go.. Only a few on here are good at long range shots. Hanka is in shotgun zone only in S Mn.= NO Grendel hunts in Southern Mn.= He loves his target shootsa. Tho...

The Gmx tip is fine , as is. The federal Fusion, not the Ford- it's fine also- the idea as a hunt pill does not always need a plastic tip.

I have tweaked them all - the plastic tips, it's not a needed component in a bullet design - I have pulled a few plastic tips out, they still expand as stated.

Why do I get the feeling that me and John are talking about deck screws, and you came in here selling nails?

You are stuck on 300 and in. I get it. I mentioned it before. I on the other hand am not, nor is John. Hence why he is talking about the bullet He would like to see made. No amount of poo-pooing and telling us how idiotic it is to want something different than you is going to change my mind.LOL

Not everyone hunts the way you do, or even wants this bullet for the same reason you do. Some of us use different barrel lengths, etc. Your mistake here is jumping in and assuming that we want what you want. It's pretty clear we don't. The thread with what you want is that way----->

Not saying this stuff to be rude, but it's as if we were discussing diesel pickup trucks in this thread and you tried to talk us in to buying a car instead. It really isn't applicable to what we want.


"Idiotically" longer polymer tips---- Yeah, I guess Barnes is pretty stupid using that tip on their 300Blk bullet to get great expansion at lower velocities while not completely bricking their BC. You might want to warn them about it.



I think some people are coming in this thread and projecting things they want (that aren't really what this proposed bullet is for) onto it.

You want a bullet that has a low BC, is intended to be shot fast out of a longer barrel, and is for use inside 300 yards? That thread is waiting for you to start it.LOL I'll promise not to come in and hijack it either.

[stanc]

Vari, u & Hanka need to let go of the fascination of these idiotically longer than available tips.. BC's don't register at close range.

The Gmx tip is fine , as is. The federal Fusion, not the Ford- it's fine also- the idea as a hunt pill does not always need a plastic tip.

I have tweaked them all - the plastic tips, it's not a needed component in a bullet design - I have pulled a few plastic tips out, they still expand as stated.

The past couple of days I've done some reading on different forums and websites.

I came across postings by guys who filed down plastic tips, and pulled tips from bullets; the modified bullets did expand well, which confirms your statement that the tips are not very important to expansion.

However, the presence or absence of the tips appears to have a dramatic effect on BC. Compare:

Sierra .257" 90 gr. HPBT BC=0.250
Sierra .257" 90 gr. BlitzKing BC=0.345

As for the unusually long tip on Hanka's proposed bullet, that not only helps to produce the highest possible BC, it also enables the bullet to have a larger diameter opening in the front of the bullet (as can be seen in the photo below), which in turn permits designing for lowest possible expansion velocity. IIRC, the .308" TAC-TX expansion threshold is ~1400 fps, compared to ~1900 fps for smaller tipped bullets like the GMX and TTSX.



I don't know why you are objecting to the guys lobbying bullet makers to develop John's proposed design.

Are you concerned that their actions might interfere with your efforts to get your designs made?

[Variable]

And if you had a Grendelized version of the .300Blk Tac-TX that could get:

1.) a .410 BC
2.) be belted out of a 12.5" barrel at 2450fps
3.) still expand at 1400 fps

It would reach 600 yards before it dropped below expansion threshold. That'd be a tall order that would require squeaking out the best parameters all around, but it'd be stellar if it could be pulled off. It'd likely make 500 yards even if you fell a little short in one of the categories.

That'd be a mighty mean SBR pill that would have many uses besides just hunting. The fact that it'd also be a great hunting bullet would just be gravy on top of it's other potential uses. Being a non-lead monometal means it could possibly work very well at higher velocities from longer barrels as well.

[txgunner00]

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetail-365/devastating-new-deer-ammo-from-winchester?dom=fas&loc=contentwell&lnk=devastating-new-deer-ammo-from-winchester

This is interesting... I wonder if the can be talked into a 6.5 projo.

[stanc]

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...rom-winchester

This is interesting... I wonder if the can be talked into a 6.5 projo.

Why? It does have an unusually long polymer tip and large nose cavity, but otherwise it is not even close to what Hanka and Variable want.

It has a lead core, ordinary tangent ogive, and flat base bullet, with mediocre BC.



Note that all of the listed Deer Season XP rounds have muzzle velocities in excess of 2800 fps, well above what would be likely with such a bullet design in 6.5 Grendel.

[Bigfoot]

IMO Sneaky deserves the benefit of the doubt that his recommendations are based on the knowledge he's gained from spending untold (and donated) hours modifying and hunting with them. He purchased a mini lathe for gods sake. Besides the truth will out with the gel tests, I can wait till them and make up my own mind.

Most of you know that I and several others have been discussing the very bullet Hanka has proposed. Good BC with good velocity and low expansion properties. I think his 6.5 version of the 110 Blackout bullet is perfection.

I seem to remember that eliminating the turbulence in the bullets wake (via long boattail) is more important than nose and ogive shape.

I'm trying to figure out how to make and test Hanka's prototype. I assume it's not annealed like some large caliber, low velocity Barnes bullets are. IIRC they are made via CNC but I assume a 120TTSX could be lathed up to match the profile and nose cavity. Similarly the 30 cal poly noses could be adapted, they don't have to be perfect this is just for gel testing.

HMM who has a mini lathe and experience modding bullets? Get my drift everybody?

We could use several new 6.5 bullets, how many 6.8 specific bullets are there, 20ish? Four different monos plus two bondeds. Agreed that we gotta get a foot in the door with a real good one so the sales will make the other manufactures notice, and I personally prefer Hankas, but lets keep our minds open and respect others input also.

Thanks for helping me get back in HANKA. Put me down for 500.