THIS Is the Dedicated 65G Bullet I Want, Part 2

[sneaky one]

Hanka, and to all-- RL 7 is a viable powder, showing zero pressure signs, as I explained to you.

We need actual pressure test data , on the RL 7- which JAsmith told me -he maybe can get to past this November- he's ultra busy, as a many of us are on these trials. He is dialing in a way to measure pressures.

No, Don't ask him for a spot in line---he's busy till 2016, with what we 4 have going on. I asked Hanka if I could send a few samples to Bill A to pressure test== no., he's too busy. So am I. I am not worried, of my findings- yet I will hold the numbers close, only for a few shooters I have helping with research shoots, will I release it to. It's all good, just need to have nice numbers on paper. This all takes a lot of time to do it up properly.

High speed pursuit of a high speed impact bullet, that will Never ever fail- also lead free. Only a few choices to be had-just need the perfect wt., the gel tests should enlighten us all.

5 companies are to be targeted. More to follow...

[BluntForceTrauma]

[montana]

A lighter bullet means less recoil, with a High B.C and a longer range with dependable expansion and good penetration! Whats there not to like. I would like to see some gel test's to verify the 7mm polymer tip doesn't compromise penetration and bullet integrity too much or were back to zero with a lighter over priced copper bullet. Bullets can do funny things and finding the sweet spot for the Grendel is a worthy pursuit. I think your on the right track to this end.

[sneaky one]

I got thru to John on all the wts. I-we have tried. Good post my friend. This GmX has been a bugger to dial in, as I love it wts. from 74 gr. to 105gr. I needed some help to get some results that I have Zero time to do here. That's why I branched out to a few on here for live game taking- I was not worried, I have taken a few already..

Then the boys from the west contacted me- offering to team up, Perfect timing for this to -get this sent in as a professional proposal. After a lot of testing was done, I did plenty-they are taking it to a better level for a proposal. I trimmed a lot of bullets. I still have more to do- so they can be tested. The goal is 6 companies now.

We want all the Grendelizers of the world to have a multitude of wts., in the lighter ones-- to pick from.

My main point here is: gel testing has been done, some more is needed., as another player in the bullet quest is due at my house - today-or Friday. It will be tortured, cut in half, shortened to almost extinction- to see what can be had from it . It may be fine as is- , I'll find out this wknd.

Pills I tweaked:

Lrx
TTSX
E tip
Gmx

Soon - Lehigh Chaos, brass pill-

Bonded pills

LR Accubond
Interbond
Orig. Accubond
Deepcurl
And a few others that I forgot about. Midway thru the first shipments, I forgot that in Cali-they are to be lead free by 19'. They should be a good compare to the unleadeds.

So, I-we have our goals as for a many pills to be sent in-- GEL tests will reveal the best of the crop. Damage assessment is the only way to see what wts. are best.

I asked John to join us on our enduring endeavor. I think it would bode well as we all have a semi similar idealism on this dream,, that I started in 2009-10.

So, I had my fave wts. all along too- let's wait a couple weeks dude. Ros can maybe post more gel tests, asap. to help fuel the fires.

Better to dial in the perfect killing wts., firstly.

Agreed gang? Yes the big tip is cool too...

[cory]

I understand exactly where you're coming from with the niche argument. That's exactly why I lean towards the 105-110gr projectile. I honestly think a military projectile would fall in that range.

If I'm going to shoot sub 100gr bullets why would I not go with a 6mm chamber, where I'll get both BC and velocity?

[BluntForceTrauma]

Cory, my thinking is that monometal bullets above, oh, about 100 grains really start eating up that powder capacity. The niche I think is not served is a 6.5 Nosler 115 Accubond Long Range. Hell, I guess there aren't any 65G bonded bullets at 105, only HPBTs, so I guess that could be called an unfilled niche, and a 105 ABLR would also be nice?

I could see a military 6.5mm M855A1 ending up 100-110gr.

[stanc]

Sounds good. But, is it practical? The only mass market bullet maker that has offered a nose shape such as you propose is Barnes.

Nosler E-Tips have a very conservative, tangent ogive, and short polymer tip. E-Tips also have a very short boat tail. I don't see Nosler making the bullet you desire. A 90gr E-Tip, maybe, but it'd most likely be short, stubby, almost flat base, with low BC.

Hornady may or may not do a secant ogive. (Latest 120gr GMX that Sneaky modified appears to have tangent ogive.) I've seen no indication of willingness to use 7mm long tips on GMX bullets.

Further, I would consider a 90gr monometal to be a sort of test-bed for military testing of a 65G concept, and I would expect them to replace the 7mm polymer tip with a 7mm steel tip M855A1-style.

Nice idea, but unrealistic. Putting a steel tip into a monometal expanding bullet is not going to result in a projectile that would give useful data in barrier penetration or gel tests. If you want to do military testing and evaluation of 6.5 Grendel, you need to develop an actual M855A1-type, jacketed bullet.

Consider that a 0.740" hybrid VLD nose and a 0.200" match boattail will still give us a bitchin' BC. This thing will never slow down!

You're kidding, right? With a BC around 0.375, or maybe a tad higher, assuming Barnes can be convinced to make your design? And if it's a Nosler E-Tip, we're talking about a BC much lower.

Consider that the favorite bullet of the competition, a 6.8 Barnes 95gr TTSX, has a stubby 0.292 BC. So we launch our 90-grain with higher velocity, with a much higher BC, with higher sectional density, and it's gonna hit harder as ranges increase because it's not gonna shed its velocity as fast. It's gonna be a real rifleman's bullet!

Mmmm. The 6.8 SPC can be loaded to pressures 4000-8000 psi higher than 6.5 Grendel, and the .277 bullet has a greater "piston area" for that extra pressure to push against. Even with a 5gr lighter bullet, how do you figure on getting higher muzzle velocity?

Consider the very wide range of already available 6.5mm bullets. We need to fill a niche. Barnes already has a 6.5 100 TTSX, even though I'm not thrilled with it because of its chubby tangent ogive, its longish bearing surface that boosts pressure, and its high expansion threshold. But there it is.

I think a 6.5 90gr monometal fills a niche.

But should we go lighter yet? So there IS room, there is a niche, but will a very light 6.5mm bullet sell?

Currently the 6.5 Grendel can use all the bullets designed for the bigger 6.5s of the world, the .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua, 6.5x55 Swedish, 6.5-.284, and is wanting its own dedicated bullets like the 6.8 SPC and .300 Blackout. If we design a dedicated 65G bullet, will the other 6.5s also find it useful, boosting its sales to them, as well?

Good question. If you wish to use that as a sales pitch, perhaps the prototype bullet(s) should be tested in those other 6.5 cartridges, to determine if it works well in them?

I don't like to give away our BC advantage without much in return.

But someone will say, "Who needs BC when, realistically, 90% of hunting is done within 200 yards?" But then any bullet will do, right? And this whole exercise becomes moot. At only 200 yards the whole range of 6.5mm bullets will shoot within inches, even fractions of inches, of point of aim.

Further, granting the point about 90% of hunting, one gives up very little at short range even if a high BC bullet is used. One can serve the longer range market without shortchanging the shorter range shooter. A win/win.

I would submit it's a win/win only if a sub-0.400 BC, 90gr bullet would actually serve the longer range market, which seems to me like a dubious proposition.

Is this a case of trying to have your cake and eat everyone else's too?

[cory]

I don't see that. The 100gr TTSX has room left for more XBR; however, pressure limits us from using it. If we could get enough bearing surface to use CFE we'd be able to use all the powder capacity.

A 105gr ABLR would be nice!

[stanc]

...I lean towards the 105-110gr projectile. I honestly think a military projectile would fall in that range.

I could see a military 6.5mm M855A1 ending up 100-110gr.

The Wolf/Barnaul FMJ projectile was originally reported (by Bill Alexander) to have a steel core, and weigh 100 grains.

It looks to me like a lead-free 6.5mm bullet could weigh 90-110 grains, depending upon desired ballistics and terminal performance.

[BluntForceTrauma]

The 6.8 SPC can be loaded to pressures 4000-8000 psi higher than 6.5 Grendel, and the .277 bullet has a greater "piston area" for that extra pressure to push against. Even with a 5gr lighter bullet, how do you figure on getting higher muzzle velocity?

I hear ya, I'm sure some competitive handloader will stuff in more powder to claim he's always getting higher muzzle velocity.

The only reason the 65G is rated to lower pressure is because Bill Alexander designed it for the lowest common denominator in a fleet of rack-grade military weapons. Isn't SAAMI 6.8 SPC spec to 55,000? The designer of the 6.8 SPC, Cris Murray, has now stated a combat cartridge should never be over about 50,000 psi, and that's what he aimed at with his 7x46. At least one powder manufacturer says their data applies to both 6.8 spec I and II.

Sure it can run hotter if one is willing to trade velocity for long-term component life. Go ahead and run your Grendel hotter if you're willing to gain velocity at the expense of long-term component life. Bolts aren't that big of a deal, right? Some 6.8 sellers have been willing to load even factory quite warm because they calculate that, seeing how expensive their ammo is, no one is going to shoot very many rounds of it over the lifetime of the gun. Getting to bolt-breaking territory of about 5000 rounds with Wilson Combat's 6.8 95 TTSX will cost you around $9,250.00 (at $1.85/round). You spend $9,250 on my warmish ammo and, hell, I'll buy you your new $75 bolt!

Pressure of about 4,800 psi grants one roughly 100 fps. Worth it? Simply a decision one makes. In the real world, all else being equal, the greater piston area of the next higher caliber gives one a "free" 50 fps. Hardly earthshaking. Study some comparable hand loads from the major powder manufacturers that also list pressure data. See what almost 7,000 psi greater pressure gains you in the 6.8 vs. 6.5. Not much, really.

Just because some specialized 6.8 barrels with "micro" lands and hot hand loads have good performance, doesn't mean they've somehow managed to defy the laws of physics. Hornady comes out with a 6.8 100 GMX at a sane 2550 fps in a 16" barrel and they yawn.

Anyway, Stan, I never expect you to be brimming over with optimism. I think my 6.5 90 H2LX would acquit itself quite well vs. the 6.8 95 TTSX.

P.S. Wait, isn't Wilson's 95 TTSX rated at 2850 fps in a 16" bbl? Why am I now reading a much more normal 2600 fps, or am I missing something? Coulda sworn it was a warmish 2850. Can never pin these guys down. . . .

[Bigfoot]

Bottom line: I've revised my analysis recommending a 6.5 100-grain H2LX (High velocity, High BC, Low Expansion) polymer-tip monometal bullet and now am firmly convinced, if we can only have one, that 90 grains is the way forward.

But, I've changed my mind before and am open to changing it again,

I hope you don't.

I could not find a single sentence in that entire post or the attached file that I disagree with.

Perfection IMHO.

High velocity. Check.

High BC for it's weight. Check.

Low speed expansion. Check.

Good penetration with little meat damage. Check.

And I agree that this is (along with a lighter ABLR) the unfilled performance niche for a mono bullet.

Also agree that the midweights (260, CM, Lapua, Sweed) will find it as, or more useful than the 100 TTSX.

I believe that the longer poly nose is the natural future for light and midweight bullets to somewhat emulate the long range performance of the heavies.

His reasoning is laid out right there and I can find no fault with it.

[stanc]

I hear ya, I'm sure some competitive handloader will stuff in more powder to claim he's always getting higher muzzle velocity.

That's not what I was referring to.

The only reason the 65G is rated to lower pressure is because Bill Alexander designed it for the lowest common denominator in a fleet of rack-grade military weapons.

That may be, but the fact is that SAAMI spec for 6.8 SPC is 4000-5000 psi higher than for 6.5 Grendel. Add in the greater piston area, and I don't see how you expect 6.5 Grendel to get higher velocity with a bullet only 5 grains lighter.

Isn't SAAMI 6.8 SPC spec to 55,000?

54k or 55k, I don't recall which.

The designer of the 6.8 SPC, Cris Murray, has now stated a combat cartridge should never be over about 50,000 psi, and that's what he aimed at with his 7x46.

I'm pretty sure he said that 6.8 SPC (not all combat cartridges) should be limited to 54,000 psi for military use. IIRC, 54k psi is also what he went with in the 7x46 UIAC.

At least one powder manufacturer says their data applies to both 6.8 spec I and II.

No doubt that's because there is no SAAMI spec for SPC II ammo. Liability concerns, as I'm sure you know.

Hornady comes out with a 6.8 100 GMX at a sane 2550 fps in a 16" barrel and they yawn.

Well, of course they yawn. 2550 fps is what Hornady lists for their 110gr loads.

I think my 6.5 90 H2LX would acquit itself quite well vs. the 6.8 95 TTSX.

I'm sure it would. I just question the idea that it'd have higher muzzle velocity.

P.S. Wait, isn't Wilson's 95 TTSX rated at 2850 fps in a 16" bbl? Why am I now reading a much more normal 2600 fps, or am I missing something? Coulda sworn it was a warmish 2850.

It's always been listed as 2600 fps, at least since I began looking at Wilson's site. Whether or not it was 2850 fps originally, I couldn't say.

[sneaky one]

But, guys- I am the reality check--- I have made these pills-shot them , chrono'ed a few too. Time will see a best use unit- we have a many plans for TAC, HUNTS,Targets. pills.

I can't tell all of my thots here, sorry- time will sort this all out, Too much to do for us . Busy guys.

Dream weavers - can only go so far- on the monolithic units, with no hard core experiences- No offense to anyone- let's wait for all the Gel tests to show up.. We have 2 more -maybe 3 ? to test this month yet.

I'm on the Lehigh chaos this wknd., as to try to lighten it up, and to maybe offer a choice of a diff mtl. we'll see. I'll report on sun- mon.
We are close to sending more details soon. Never worked with brass before, could be fun?

The new social media - thinks it has the right to Expect results -right now , dammitt! Aint gonna happen in this climate of perfection for our beloved 6.5 Grrr.

Stan, be nice now. We are all on the same team- page here. Future data will spill the beans. It's a wait game for a bit. Maybe we all should Read the comics for a few weeks.

Relax for some more time for us guys behind the scenes.. It's unreal , the time effort involved in doing this style of tests- with end results that have proof inside - it's for the greater cause for us all.

[sneaky one]

BF, you have so many good points . A pill or 2 must be made to check your thoughts out. Hanka's too. Delrin... delrin.. sorry--- D.

Ship to here.

Sleep time now.

[sneaky one]

OOps, forgot- Hanka man- yes I sent some 105-110-115 Accus- in bonded pills out west.. Interbonds too, all the bonded pills. Yes I was a busy guy this year.