THIS Is the Dedicated 65G Bullet I Want, Part 2

[Variable]

I hope you don't.

I could not find a single sentence in that entire post or the attached file that I disagree with.

Perfection IMHO.

High velocity. Check.

High BC for it's weight. Check.

Low speed expansion. Check.

Good penetration with little meat damage. Check.

And I agree that this is (along with a lighter ABLR) the unfilled performance niche for a mono bullet.

Also agree that the midweights (260, CM, Lapua, Sweed) will find it as, or more useful than the 100 TTSX.

I believe that the longer poly nose is the natural future for light and midweight bullets to somewhat emulate the long range performance of the heavies.

His reasoning is laid out right there and I can find no fault with it.

Ditto. My thoughts as well. John is pitching exactly what I want.

[cory]

I don't understand why the AR10 6.5mm calibers would touch a 90gr bullet. I'd suspect they'd be pushing these at 3200+fps, which gets into barrel burning velocities. (Or am I completely off there???) They'd be shortening the life of their barrel for what exactly?

[bwaites]

I don't understand why the AR10 6.5mm calibers would touch a 90gr bullet. I'd suspect they'd be pushing these at 3200+fps, which gets into barrel burning velocities. (Or am I completely off there???) They'd be shortening the life of their barrel for what exactly?

Light bullets pushed fast might not actually cause that issue, heavy bullets tend to be more problematical that way. In 7mm WSM, people don't complain about 140 grain bullets burning out the barrel, but once you hit 3000FPS with 168-180 class bullets you drop barrel life to about 1000 rounds or so.

[stanc]

Ditto. My thoughts as well. John is pitching exactly what I want.

Yeah. Couple of questions:

1. A 0.400-plus BC seems like a challenge at 100gr projectile weight. Can it actually be achieved in a practical 90gr bullet?

2. Other than possibly Barnes, who can realistically be expected to produce such a design?

[stanc]

I don't understand why the AR10 6.5mm calibers would touch a 90gr bullet. I'd suspect they'd be pushing these at 3200+fps, which gets into barrel burning velocities. (Or am I completely off there???) They'd be shortening the life of their barrel for what exactly?

I wouldn't know about that. But, if there was actually any significant demand for a 90gr monometal bullet in the bigger 6.5 cartridges, wouldn't at least one of the major bullet/ammo makers offered it long before now?

[cory]

I seem to recall some in depth discussion about the ideal Grendel "Green" Mil bullet in the Mil section here, sometime back. I thought we came to the general conclusion that the ideal lead free bullet would be in the 105gr to 115gr range.

I don't understand the push for the sub 100gr bullet. We're giving up BC for velocity that may very well be able to be made up. If the heavier bullet is designed with sufficient bearing surface to allow for slower powders, which we know to give the best velocities in the Grendel.

If I can get 2700 fps from a 16" barrel with a bullet that'll open up reliably at sub 1800 fps, the only thing I need at this point is BC.

[cory]

I think we're overlooking something.

We want to open this bullet up with an enlarged tip that'll allow expansion at sub 1700 fps. And we've made the point that most shots on medium game are taken within 200 yards.

I don't know that it's feasible to expect this type of bullet to hold together, when impacting at 2800+ fps. Even with a solid copper bullet, at some velocity threshold this thing is going to fragment on impact.

[stanc]

I seem to recall some in depth discussion about the ideal Grendel "Green" Mil bullet in the Mil section here, sometime back. I thought we came to the general conclusion that the ideal lead free bullet would be in the 105gr to 115gr range.

I just checked the "green bullet" thread. No in-depth discussion on bullet weight there, but I guesstimated that a steel-tipped Hornady GMX might weigh 110 grains: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...ll=1#post67142

I don't understand the push for the sub 100gr bullet. We're giving up BC for velocity that may very well be able to be made up. If the heavier bullet is designed with sufficient bearing surface to allow for slower powders, which we know to give the best velocities in the Grendel.

Isn't the idea to use faster powders, so as to get higher velocities in short barrels?

[BluntForceTrauma]

1. A 0.400-plus BC seems like a challenge at 100gr projectile weight. Can it actually be achieved in a practical 90gr bullet?

Fair point. May not be technically feasible. My point is to make it as sleek as possible given the AR magazine OAL constraints, and let the BC fall where it will. Bullet makers will need to step outside their comfort zone and exhibit a little bit of vision and innovation, but not much. The bullet I've mocked up is it (see my post #47). Not too difficult.

2. Other than possibly Barnes, who can realistically be expected to produce such a design?

I'd also recommend Hornady or Lehigh.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I don't understand the push for the sub 100gr bullet.

The push is to fill a niche of bullets purpose-designed for the 65G. There are already a ton of other 6.5 bullets to choose from, including the heavier monometals from Barnes, Hornady, and GS Custom.

With a lead bullet, you'll lose some weight at impact.

Let's say we get a 105 Nosler ABLR lead core, and that after impact its recovered weight is 90 grains.

Let's say we get a 90 H2LX monometal. After impact its recovered weight is 90 grains. Performance on par with the heavier lead core. But we were able to launch it with greater muzzle velocity because of its lighter weight.

[bwaites]

K

The push is to fill a niche of bullets purpose-designed for the 65G. There are already a ton of other 6.5 bullets to choose from, including the heavier monometals from Barnes, Hornady, and GS Custom.

With a lead bullet, you'll lose some weight at impact.

Let's say we get a 105 Nosler ABLR lead core, and that after impact its recovered weight is 90 grains.

Let's say we get a 90 H2LX monometal. After impact its recovered weight is 90 grains. Performance on par with the heavier lead core. But we were able to launch it with greater muzzle velocity because of its lighter weight.

But that bullets BC will be significantly less. Up close it doesn't matter, but up close I would make the argument that getting hit with a 123 going 2300 FPS vs a 90 going 3000 FPS will make little difference!

I understand the TACTICAL idea of a light monometal that opens well, since it will decrease the risk of pass throughs in close quarters. I use the Hornady 95 grain VMax for that purpose now. The Lehighs look like possibly an even better option, because I have always had concerns about the VMax blowing up if it hit something on the intruders clothing or in a pocket.

I do suspect, though, that the brass bullets may just "poof" when they hit something, instead of acting like the copper bullets do and maintaining weight.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I should note that I'd only be interested in copper or copper alloy from Lehigh, and not brass. If I remember their website, they indicated a willingness to work with other than brass.

And I'd have to run some options in a ballistics program, but the goal would be to have the 90 hybrid VLD be a laser out to 500 yards — and expand nicely when it gets there!

[Bigfoot]

I think we're overlooking something.

We want to open this bullet up with an enlarged tip that'll allow expansion at sub 1700 fps. And we've made the point that most shots on medium game are taken within 200 yards.

I don't know that it's feasible to expect this type of bullet to hold together, when impacting at 2800+ fps. Even with a solid copper bullet, at some velocity threshold this thing is going to fragment on impact.

Barnes makes two TTSXs in .257 caliber, an 80 gr (SD .173) and a 100 gr (SD .216). The 80 gr is launched from the 25-06 faster (3800 fps) than our 90 will go in the midcapacity (260 etc) and it doesn't fragment, might lose some petals but at those extreme velocities the pressure off the meplat does plenty of damage. Go to GS Customs site and read, theirs are designed to lose the petals. Both Barnes and GS are pure copper, the gilding metal of the GMX is tougher, petal loss is possible but I've never read of an instance.

This 6.5 90 will have a SD of .184.

But that bullets BC will be significantly less. Up close it doesn't matter, but up close I would make the argument that getting hit with a 123 going 2300 FPS vs a 90 going 3000 FPS will make little difference!

Less than the proposed 105 ABLR? IMO probably similar BC. Have you seen HANKAs attached file? It has the proflile of the 130 gr Berger VLD (BC .552) with grooves. My guess is the BC will be over .450 easily.

The extended range is why it would sell to the midcapacity (260 etc.) crowd over the 100 TTSX.

I'd take a light mono at 3000 over a lead core bullet at 2300 every hunting day of the year. Faster kills (deer organ soup) even from extreme angles and less meat damage, plus no lead in your steaks.

And I'd have to run some options in a ballistics program, but the goal would be to have the 90 hybrid VLD be a laser out to 500 yards — and expand nicely when it gets there!

With a .400 BC and launched at 2900 it reaches 1700 fps at 570 yards. With a .450 BC it's good till 650 yds.

Edit: With a .400 BC and launched at 2900 it reaches 1500 at 700 yards. With a .450 BC it's good till 790 yds.

Yes I'm a bullet geek. Bullet construction trumps caliber and often velocity.

[bwaites]

I hope we can get a 90 above .400, but it takes a 75 grain VLD to get there at .224, and a 90 grain 6mm VLD to get above it , so I have great doubts!

[cory]

Barnes makes two TTSXs in .257 caliber, an 80 gr (SD .173) and a 100 gr (SD .216) the 80 gr is launched from the 25-06 faster than our 90 will go in the midcalibers (260 etc) and it doesn't fragment, might lose some petals but at those extreme velocities the pressure off the meplat does plenty of damage. Go to GS Customs site and read, theirs are designed to lose the petals. Both Barnes and GS are solid copper, the gilding metal of the GMX is tougher, petal loss is possible but I've never read of an instance.

This 6.5 90 will have a SD of .184...

What's the minimum velocity of expansion for those bullets? I suspect it's 2000+ fps. That's significantly higher than what we seek.