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Thread: 7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block

  1. #21
    warped
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    Each round was $5 well spent as well.

    That is what is cost effective, not using a AGM 114 just for a crappy old Dushka crew served heavy MG.
    Last edited by warped; 08-21-2011 at 09:28 PM.

  2. #22
    michaelmew
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    Stanc, thanks for taking the time to setup, videotape, edit, and share your video with us, everyone loves to see stuff blow up.

    I'm wondering though, why did you decide to only shoot through one piece of concrete block. I think the point you were trying to illustrate was the effects on a person standing behind a cmu barrier. But, if you stop and think about it, the bullet would have to go through 1 side of the block plus air space (if not concrete reinforced) then another layer of concrete block and maybe even a layer of gypsum board. I would like to see if the bullets can maintain their lethality after that second layer of block and gyp bd.

    I think JASmith made a good point about the wound channel effects when shooting at milk jugs. Unless the bullet goes all the way through, can we really determine how far it penetrated once it broke the surface? We need some kind of elastic container that can stretch, or a different media that can be measured. Furthermore, since our bodies are like 90% water, water seems like the logical best choice, but is it?

    I realize we arent in a lab or anything like that, and I don't mean any disrespect. I think its awesome that you could make a video in the first place - that's more than I can say.

    -michaelmew

  3. #23
    JASmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by warped View Post
    Each round was $5 well spent as well.

    That is what is cost effective, not using a AGM 114 just for a crappy old Dushka crew served heavy MG.
    How long would it have taken to get permission to use that AGM 114? Then, how long would it have taken to get the bird in the right spot to launch -- assuming the asset was already in the area?

    +1 for the Barrett! Money and training time well spent!!

  4. #24
    Chieftain stanc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelmew View Post
    Stanc, thanks for taking the time to setup, videotape, edit, and share your video with us, everyone loves to see stuff blow up.

    I'm wondering though, why did you decide to only shoot through one piece of concrete block. I think the point you were trying to illustrate was the effects on a person standing behind a cmu barrier. But, if you stop and think about it, the bullet would have to go through 1 side of the block plus air space (if not concrete reinforced) then another layer of concrete block and maybe even a layer of gypsum board. I would like to see if the bullets can maintain their lethality after that second layer of block and gyp bd.

    I think JASmith made a good point about the wound channel effects when shooting at milk jugs. Unless the bullet goes all the way through, can we really determine how far it penetrated once it broke the surface? We need some kind of elastic container that can stretch, or a different media that can be measured. Furthermore, since our bodies are like 90% water, water seems like the logical best choice, but is it?

    I realize we arent in a lab or anything like that, and I don't mean any disrespect. I think its awesome that you could make a video in the first place - that's more than I can say.
    Michael,

    Thanks for the praise, but I'm afraid it's misplaced. I did not make the video, I found it while searching for 6.5 Grendel videos on youtube.

    I'd love to make such a video, and I fully agree with you that it'd be better to use a CMU (instead of the capstone), backed up by ordnance gelatin to show the permanent wound channel.

    However, not everybody has the ability (or desire) to work with gelatin, so I can understand why the producer chose to back up the block with jugs of water. While they are not as scientific as gelatin, the splash created does give a good indication of the bullets' remaining energy. Clearly, the 5.56 expended nearly all of its energy just getting through the block, while the larger calibers retained enough energy to violently displace the H2O.

    Stan

  5. #25
    Chieftain stanc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelmew View Post
    I think the point you were trying to illustrate was the effects on a person standing behind a cmu barrier. But, if you stop and think about it, the bullet would have to go through 1 side of the block plus air space...then another layer of concrete block... I would like to see if the bullets can maintain their lethality after that second layer of block...
    I can tell you from my own experience in doing such a penetration test, that (at 100 yards) 5.56 M855 doesn't even get through the second side of a CMU, so would have no post-barrier lethality.

    In contrast, 7.62 M80 not only punched through both sides of one block, but went through one side of another CMU positioned behind the first. (See attached drawing.)

    It'd be very interesting to see if a 6.5 Grendel FMJ load can equal 7.62 M80 penetration of a CMU at 100 yards.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #26
    warped
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASmith View Post
    How long would it have taken to get permission to use that AGM 114? Then, how long would it have taken to get the bird in the right spot to launch -- assuming the asset was already in the area?

    +1 for the Barrett! Money and training time well spent!!
    You know it.

    It is not like there is always an AH64 hovering over your shoulder.

  7. #27
    Chieftain Variable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites View Post
    Well, if I can prevail upon my source for 20-30 more bullets, I can use the 120 grain FMJ Norma.
    [cough...]Is that a hint? LOL!!!

    I still have that DVD for you too. I was setting on it waiting to have something cool to send with it, but no joy yet, so it wouldn't be problem to send a care package with some Normas in it. I just hated mailing a lonely DVD.

  8. #28
    mtn_shooter
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    I tend to agree that mass > material in general for most barrier penetration (ceramic/concrete). Then again if you are limited to roughly the same mass, material makes all of the difference, especially when dealing with real-deal armor plate.

    168 grain .30-06 lead core is going to perform a LOT better than 62 grain steel core at similar velocities, but 165 grain .30-06 AP is going to perform considerably better than the lead core counterpart. Needless to say, both are important for barrier penetration.

    I would be very interested to see a M2-AP style core inside of a 125 grain 6.5 MM bullet and the effect vs. 3/8" AR500 plate, concrete, and ballistic gel. And whatever combination of the above.

  9. #29
    QuadCam
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    slightly off topic, but has anyone seen any videos similar to this but for "home defense." I would love to see a video of how various calibers and various projectiles deal with 2 layers of drywall with a 3.5 inch airgap between them. Everyone is always concerned about overpenetrating interior walls of a home. I'd really like to see something like that.

  10. #30
    WillD
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    Here's a site using various calibers and test mediums.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

    Cheers, Will

  11. #31
    mtn_shooter
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by QuadCam View Post
    slightly off topic, but has anyone seen any videos similar to this but for "home defense." I would love to see a video of how various calibers and various projectiles deal with 2 layers of drywall with a 3.5 inch airgap between them. Everyone is always concerned about overpenetrating interior walls of a home. I'd really like to see something like that.
    .22lr will punch straight through that. I've done it in old abandon houses in the middle of no where in NW kansas (On private land, with the land owner, he didn't care etc...).

  12. #32
    LRRPF52
    Guest
    .22LR, shotgun pellets, hollow points, FMJ's, or pretty much any piece of metal going over 800 fps will sail through dry wall, insulation, wiring, joists, framework, windows and the thin, weak surrounding of your home. It makes shot placement that much more important when in an urbanized area with your neighbors asleep next door, or their kids playing nearby. I've shot stacked phone books in a house a few times with .380 Ranger SXT's & .40 S&W's for a side-by-side comparison, and they eventually cut through the books, went through furniture, and through one layer of dry wall, but didn't exit the real brick exterior.

    When it comes to high-power rifle cartridges, where you're most likely looking at velocities well over 2000 fps, you're going to have a lot of through-&-through with typical construction mediums, especially with bullets that have more mass. There is a dual duty to protect your life, your family's, and your neighbors' lives by making very true shot placement.

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