Lets find a SUBSONIC LOAD for the Grendel that cycles!!

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  • Sniper338
    Warrior
    • Dec 2014
    • 190

    Lets find a SUBSONIC LOAD for the Grendel that cycles!!

    Not to steal any other threads, Just want to see if a few of us or many of us would be willing to experiment.... From what I have seen it hasn't been found yet... So I would like to go ahead and propose a forum wide reloading search to try to find something that works. Post your data with results: brass, bullet, powder, charge, COAL, Primer, etc... target....

    Lets see how close we can come to finding a load that cycles and as close to or subsonic!

    *** After the best loads are found, lets all try it in our rifles and see what the accuracy across the board is, see what we can do here...


    LETS USE SOME CAUTION HERE, BE SMART!
  • rabiddawg
    Chieftain
    • Feb 2013
    • 1664

    #2
    Im assuming one needs a silencer to participate?
    Knowing everthing isnt as important as knowing where to find it.

    Mark Twain

    http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...2-Yd-Whitetail

    Comment

    • Sniper338
      Warrior
      • Dec 2014
      • 190

      #3
      I dont have one yet, so i guess not... key word yet. But i wont get one if i never get it subsonic its useless to me supersonic. Loads can still be tested without a scilencer imo...

      Comment

      • PrecisionFirearms
        Warrior
        • Apr 2011
        • 767

        #4
        I don't think this is not going to happen. In order for the round to be subsonic the pressures would need to be too low to cycle the carrier. Even with Low mass buffer, carrier, and LARGE gas port, it physically can not happen. We have tried it. The only thing we haven't tried was a 18 or 20 inch barrel with pistol gas system. Even then it going to be iffy. A heavy bullet to increase dwell time will help. I am not aware of 200+ grain bullets in 6.5 cal.

        In order for a chance to work we would need to make a 18 inch barrel with 1-7 Twist and pistol gas length and .1xxx gas port. Load a 200+ grain bullet with about similar powder charge as a 300AAC subsonic.

        Even the 300 AAC has issues with cycling using subsonic loads.
        "Precision - The Pinnacle of Perfection."

        Comment

        • Sniper338
          Warrior
          • Dec 2014
          • 190

          #5
          Well maybe i bit off more than we can chew. I hadnt seen any info on it yet.... i thought the 300 blk did fine in ARs... good info.... glad i havent bought a suppresor yet!

          Comment

          • txgunner00
            Chieftain
            • Mar 2011
            • 2070

            #6
            Guys - It can be done. What I've come up with is no less reliable than 300 blk subsonic loads I have seen. What can't be given is a specific list of parts and load data that will work in every situation. It will take some trial and error one each individual rifle.

            For me, the same powder I use for my full power loads (8208) worked the best. Charge is 13.7gr.

            Using neck sized only (un-fire formed) 7.62x39 brass helped increase feeding reliably and lower velocity spreads by increasing load density. I also use a 7.62 magazine.

            REM 9 1/2 LR primer

            Hornady 160 RN - these are coming back in stock now at a few places
            -I'm still experimenting with this. I have a mold for a 170 grain cast bullet but have not had time to make any. The 160 cycles well enough but doesn't deform hardly at all on impact in gel. This is something I hope to improve.

            Full auto carrier
            H3 heavy buffer

            MicroMOA switchable gas block with 3 position plate. This is the one piece of hardware that made my 12.5" Grendel run. My 20" would run OK without it but the 12.5" just didn't have enough dwell time. I'll have to look up the port sizes but it enables me to shoot full power suppressed, full power unsuppressed and subsonic suppressed.


            In regards to suppressors, all this is not really worth it without one IMO. Without on the SS loads are a little quieter than full power but not enough to be worth this hassle. Yes you can test SS loads without a can but the back pressure it provides makes a bug difference on how well it performs. If you can get a load to cycle without a can then it should only work better with one.

            Sniper- have you shot any suppressed rifles? If you haven't you should. I bought my first 8 years or so ago and now I almost don't care for shooting without them. I have multiple now and plan to buy and build many more. I have actually made more than I have bought. They aren't that hard. There's thread on arfcom in the suppressor forum right now about guys making them with off the shelf parts- with proper paperwork of course. The can I use on my Grendel is a 30 cal. YHM Titanium. It works very well and is a good value. I would not consider getting a 6.5 or 6.8 specific can myself. Without out specialized equipment you couldn't tell the difference between them and the 30 cal. Plus, it can be used on anything up to .300 RUM. In short, buy one. You will be glad you did.
            Last edited by txgunner00; 12-18-2014, 02:22 PM.
            NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

            "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

            George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

            Comment

            • Sniper338
              Warrior
              • Dec 2014
              • 190

              #7
              Originally posted by txgunner00 View Post
              Guys - It can be done. What I've come up with is no less reliable than 300 blk subsonic loads I have seen. What can't be given is a specific list of parts and load data that will work in every situation. It will take some trial and error one each individual rifle.

              For me, the same powder I use for my full power loads (8208) worked the best. Charge is 13.7gr.

              Using neck sized only (un-fire formed) 7.62x39 brass helped increase feeding reliably and lower velocity spreads by increasing load density. I also use a 7.62 magazine.

              REM 9 1/2 LR primer

              Hornady 160 RN - these are coming back in stock now at a few places
              -I'm still experimenting with this. I have a mold for a 170 grain cast bullet but have not had time to make any. The 160 cycles well enough but doesn't deform hardly at all on impact in gel. This is something I hope to improve.

              Full auto carrier
              H3 heavy buffer

              MicroMOA switchable gas block with 3 position plate. This is the one piece of hardware that made my 12.5" Grendel run. My 20" would run OK without it but the 12.5" just didn't have enough dwell time. I'll have to look up the port sizes but it enables me to shoot full power suppressed, full power unsuppressed and subsonic suppressed.


              In regards to suppressors, all this is not really worth it without one IMO. Without on the SS loads are a little quieter than full power but not enough to be worth this hassle. Yes you can test SS loads without a can but the back pressure it provides makes a bug difference on how well it performs. If you can get a load to cycle without a can then it should only work better with one.

              Sniper- have you shot any suppressed rifles? If you haven't you should. I bought my first 8 years or so ago and now I almost don't care for shooting without them. I have multiple now and plan to buy and build many more. I have actually made more than I have bought. They aren't that hard. There's thread on arfcom in the suppressor forum right now about guys making them with off the shelf parts- with proper paperwork of course. The can I use on my Grendel is a 30 cal. YHM Titanium. It works very well and is a good value. I would not consider getting a 6.5 or 6.8 specific can myself. Without out specialized equipment you couldn't tell the difference between them and the 30 cal. Plus, it can be used on anything up to .300 RUM. In short, buy one. You will be glad you did.


              ive shot .22 lr suppressors and 223 suppressed. My buddy has a 308 suppressor we are gonna throw on my grendel sooner or later to see what it does... for me though i dont mind hearing protection... and when it comes to hunting which i mainly do... a suppressor isnt all that beneficial supersonic, it helps some subsonic, but its still loud enough to make the rest of the hogs run... i dont have enough experiance with them to go crazy for one yet... i just know i want a 22 lr can because they do work so so well...

              Comment

              • Slappy
                Warrior
                • Feb 2014
                • 711

                #8
                Why not have as specific 6.5 suppressor?? Isn't a 30cal can like throwing a hotdog down a hallway?? Do not know enough about cans/suppressors. I liken it to a brake, the same thought you do not want anything bumping an edge. Thanks in advance. BANG BANG!!

                Comment

                • LRRPF52
                  Super Moderator
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 8569

                  #9
                  30 cal cans are fine for 6.5 and 5.56/.223.

                  I was just shooting a friend's 300 BLK 8" yesterday with a .45 can on it. He makes his own lead cast bullets. Loaded ammo is 4 cents a piece for him. He had an Elftmann trigger, and it failed to reset, so the thing was doubling and pentupling on me. It was glorious!

                  I gotta have a suppressed SBR with subs now. For Grendel, I would actually look at .338 Grendel if you want more terminal energy.

                  Brass availability right now favors 5.56 trimmed and formed. Guys are making their own cans and Form 1 them, with almost no wait. I'm looking at getting most of my blasters muffled. Get some Titanium tubing, build the baffle stacks, etc.

                  There are a number of things I have been working on that I haven't said much about, but will in due time. I think SHOT is going to be really interesting.
                  NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                  CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                  6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                  www.AR15buildbox.com

                  Comment

                  • txgunner00
                    Chieftain
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 2070

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Sniper338 View Post
                    ive shot .22 lr suppressors and 223 suppressed. My buddy has a 308 suppressor we are gonna throw on my grendel sooner or later to see what it does... for me though i dont mind hearing protection... and when it comes to hunting which i mainly do... a suppressor isnt all that beneficial supersonic, it helps some subsonic, but its still loud enough to make the rest of the hogs run... i dont have enough experiance with them to go crazy for one yet... i just know i want a 22 lr can because they do work so so well...
                    The benefits for suppressors while hunting are many...

                    Hearing protection is one. I prefer not to wear any so I can hear what's coming. I know you can get the electronic type but, for me, wearing anything in or on my ears for extended periods of time makes them hurt.

                    Even with subsonic loads you are never going to make a shot into a pack or herd of anything and not get some sort of reaction. Subs do help lessen probability of them scattering but not always. As you know, you will never have a completely silent gun. You will have the thump of the can capturing the expanding gases, action noise, gas escaping the system, the bullet traveling through the air, etc. All the suppressor does from the target's perspective is help disguise the source of the shot. Supersonic rounds actually have an advantage in this. With supersonic, the bullet hits or passes the target before the report from the gun arrives and having been down range (behind cover) while rounds are shot over and beside me, the sonic boom usually drowns out the report. Also, the sonic boom actually sounds like is coming from down range, at least to me it does. I have had coyotes and hogs on some occasions run directly towards me when I had just shot their buddy. Subsonics shots are pretty easy to pick up the direction from which they came and most of the time I've used them on hogs the others have ran away from me. Occasionally you get one that just stands there and looks dumb at his buddy flopping on the ground but not always. The biggest advantage they have over supers is you can pop critter off your feeder and something a couple hundred yards away won't hear it.

                    They help you be polite to your neighbors. The the sound of the sonic boom does carry out a ways but not as far as the report does. The report is a very well known sound and even non-gun people know exactly what it is. Hearing the crack from a distance is much less distinguishable.

                    There's the obvious terminal advantage of supers over subs...

                    And others...

                    Point is, they both have pros and cons over each other but I can't come up with any good reason to not use a suppressor in any situation.
                    NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

                    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

                    George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

                    Comment

                    • am4966
                      Chieftain
                      • Jul 2014
                      • 1036

                      #11
                      I'm getting a can for my 12.5" Grendel I've been thinking and looking. I like what I have seen from Griffin Armament Recce 7 they are coming out with a 30SD can at shot that really performs. I'm thinking about the Dead Air Sandman S but I need to see test first. YHM and Silencerco.

                      I know I'll want a Ti for the SPR I'm gonna build too and Kike txgunner says the .30 cal cans caen be uses on a lot odiar weapons
                      12.5" SBR Grendel - Need Barrel
                      Surge - Rugged Suppressor
                      Been a fan of the Grendel from the very beginning and haven't second guessed that choice one time.

                      Aim small, miss small!

                      Comment

                      • txgunner00
                        Chieftain
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 2070

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Slappy View Post
                        Why not have as specific 6.5 suppressor?? Isn't a 30cal can like throwing a hotdog down a hallway?? Do not know enough about cans/suppressors. I liken it to a brake, the same thought you do not want anything bumping an edge. Thanks in advance. BANG BANG!!
                        A good baffle design utilizes turbulence and "cross jetting" of gasses and doesn't necessary need a tight bore. Some old suppressor designs required the use of "wipes" or disks of leather or similar synthetic material you actually shot through. They were very effective, but only for a few shots until the hole got too big.

                        There are many good suppressor designs today that work very well with shooting smaller calibers through them than what they are designed for. I have a .223 YHM SS and a .30 cal YHM Ti can. You can tell only a very slight difference between the two on my .223 rifles and both are hearing safe. You can't shoot a larger caliber through a can than what it's designed for, for obvious reasons. If I had to do it over again, I probably would have just bought 2 .30 cal cans. The Ti 30 can actually weighs about half of what the SS .223 can weights even though its significantly larger. The only down side to Ti cans in my book is they usually are not full auto rated. I don't have anything myself with a giggle switch but have friends that do. I can tell you that shooting clay rabbits on my friend's privates 5 stand course with a full auto suppressed SBR is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.
                        NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

                        "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

                        George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

                        Comment

                        • txgunner00
                          Chieftain
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 2070

                          #13
                          Wow - this thread has really been derailed...

                          Let me make an attempt to get it back on track...

                          I'll be doing some long range shooting this weekend and I'll take some SS loads also. If I can get a camera to work I'll post some video of shooing SS 6.5 on steel.
                          NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

                          "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

                          George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

                          Comment

                          • LRRPF52
                            Super Moderator
                            • Sep 2014
                            • 8569

                            #14
                            Yup. Full Auto Suppressed Subsonic is definitely fun. MP5SD is like that, but the 300 Whisper has way more energy. My buddy has a 6.5" twist on his barrel, and I think you can consistently launch out to distance with repeatable hits with that set-up. I'm very tempted to go to 300BLK for most of my CQM/CQM training from now on. It also might allow me to shoot pistol steel that isn't rifle rated.

                            For any of them, I think a tight twist is where it's at. I shot a special custom canned AR10 at BoomerShoot this year that was crazy quiet with M118 supers.
                            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                            www.AR15buildbox.com

                            Comment

                            • Sniper338
                              Warrior
                              • Dec 2014
                              • 190

                              #15
                              Txgunner - all true... i cant think of a reason not to use one either ... only reason i dont have one is because i have been shy to pay for it all... lots of money...

                              Comment

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