Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ?

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  • stanc
    Banned
    • Apr 2011
    • 3430

    #16
    Stoner 63 -- so controllable even a child can shoot it.

    (Check out the targets at the end of the video. )


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    • Nukes
      Banned
      • Sep 2014
      • 87

      #17
      Originally posted by montana View Post
      http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...idarticles=108

      Scroll down to about the middle and Sullivan can explain it better than I can.
      Thank you! I am now duly edified :-)

      Comment

      • LRRPF52
        Super Moderator
        • Sep 2014
        • 8569

        #18
        Maybe the Stoner 63 just looks like it's constant recoil when Miculek shoots it. The Stoner is a lot better than the Minimi though, and much lighter.

        If you watch video of the Ultimax 100, it's scary controllable.
        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

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        Comment

        • montana
          Chieftain
          • Jun 2011
          • 3209

          #19
          Originally posted by stanc View Post
          I wish I could take you up on that offer. However, even if I could, it wouldn't settle anything in the context of my previous post, unless I could also shoot the ArmWest M4 for comparison.

          I didn't say that it looked uncontrollable. I said that it appeared to kick harder and be less controllable to the standard M4.

          Of course it can. The nice thing about the In Range video is that it showed two individuals firing both weapons in the same manner from the shoulder, which eliminates one variable in the comparison.

          However, the guy in the In Range video who shot Sullivan's M4 one-handed, did not do the same with the standard M4, so I had no choice but to look for a video of someone else doing the same stunt with an M4. And in the video I posted, controllability in one-handed firing looks relatively the same compared to the one-handed shooting of the ArmWest M4, as did the shoulder firing of both guns, i.e., more controllable, less recoil.
          Yea we probably wouldn't settle anything but we would have a lot of fun.

          Comment

          • montana
            Chieftain
            • Jun 2011
            • 3209

            #20
            Originally posted by stanc View Post
            What do you mean? What capabilities?

            Comment

            • LRRPF52
              Super Moderator
              • Sep 2014
              • 8569

              #21
              Regardless of what can be seen in videos, I can tell you from personal experience that shooting a constant recoil system on full auto is night and day from a multiple impulse design. You can write your name if there's enough ammo.

              The Suomi Kp31 SMG is constant recoil, designed in the 1930's.
              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

              www.AR15buildbox.com

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              • stanc
                Banned
                • Apr 2011
                • 3430

                #22
                I wonder how much of the StG44 controllability is due to the constant-recoil design, and how much to the combination of a very heavy weapon and low-power cartridge?

                Comment

                • montana
                  Chieftain
                  • Jun 2011
                  • 3209

                  #23
                  Originally posted by stanc View Post
                  I wonder how much of the StG44 controllability is due to the constant-recoil design, and how much to the combination of a very heavy weapon and low-power cartridge?
                  I have a full auto Galil ARM in 5.56 that is heavier than the STG44 and it isn't as controllable as my M-16 from the shoulder. Keep on trying , I'm dug in .

                  Comment

                  • stanc
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2011
                    • 3430

                    #24
                    Originally posted by montana View Post
                    I have a full auto Galil ARM in 5.56 that is heavier than the STG44 and it isn't as controllable as my M-16 from the shoulder. Keep on trying , I'm dug in .
                    Okay, try this. A 6.5 Grendel M4 with 10.5" barrel ought to have about the same muzzle velocity with 123gr ammo as the StG44 with 125gr 7.92 Kurz ammo.

                    Add on enough gadgets to the Grendel to make its weight equal to that of the Sturmgewehr, and do a side-by-side controllability test.

                    If the StG44's constant recoil really makes a significant difference, it ought to be noticeable.

                    Comment

                    • montana
                      Chieftain
                      • Jun 2011
                      • 3209

                      #25
                      Originally posted by stanc View Post
                      Okay, try this. A 6.5 Grendel M4 with 10.5" barrel ought to have about the same muzzle velocity with 123gr ammo as the StG44 with 125gr 7.92 Kurz ammo.

                      Add on enough gadgets to the Grendel to make its weight equal to that of the Sturmgewehr, and do a side-by-side controllability test.

                      If the StG44's constant recoil really makes a significant difference, it ought to be noticeable.
                      The M4"M-16" is a very controllable action when set up with a DI system compared to the Kalashnikov and the STG-44 which both use a long stroke gas piston. There is a big difference between the DI and gas piston when both are put in the AR platform which is why I switched back to the DI system in most of my rifles. This is why the constant recoil works so well. The STG-44 is comparable to the Galil ARM "AKA Kalashnikov" in weight and function yet the STG-44 is far superior because it was designed with constant recoil. The impulse of the recoil is much more manageable when constant recoil is applied. The German MP-40 is far superior when compared to the Sten SMG which I have shot both off. It may not look like it on videos but if you shot both types you would be very impressed with the difference.

                      Comment

                      • LRRPF52
                        Super Moderator
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 8569

                        #26
                        The balance of the MP44 is also one of the best, even when compared to modern assault rifles. The human interface with the MP44 is superb, except for the handguard. The cheek to comb and sight height is perfect, and the grip and controls feel great. Even though it's heavier, it feels more comfortable to carry than an AK any day.
                        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                        www.AR15buildbox.com

                        Comment

                        • stanc
                          Banned
                          • Apr 2011
                          • 3430

                          #27
                          Originally posted by montana View Post
                          There is a big difference between the DI and gas piston when both are put in the AR platform which is why I switched back to the DI system in most of my rifles. This is why the constant recoil works so well.
                          Sorry, but I don't see the correlation between those two sentences.
                          The STG-44 is comparable to the Galil ARM "AKA Kalashnikov" in weight and function yet the STG-44 is far superior because it was designed with constant recoil. The impulse of the recoil is much more manageable when constant recoil is applied. It may not look like it on videos but if you shot both types you would be very impressed with the difference.
                          Perhaps. I suppose I'll never be able to experience it for myself, though.

                          Comment

                          • stanc
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 3430

                            #28
                            Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                            The balance of the MP44 is also one of the best, even when compared to modern assault rifles. The human interface with the MP44 is superb, except for the handguard. The cheek to comb and sight height is perfect, and the grip and controls feel great.
                            I fully agree. About 20 years ago I had an MP44 in my hot little hands for awhile. I'd rate it perhaps second only in fit, feel, and handling to my M1AE2.

                            Comment

                            • montana
                              Chieftain
                              • Jun 2011
                              • 3209

                              #29
                              Originally posted by stanc View Post
                              Sorry, but I don't see the correlation between those two sentences.

                              Perhaps. I suppose I'll never be able to experience it for myself, though.
                              The correlation is that even though the STG-44 has a gas piston which creates a sharper recoil than a DI system, the STG-44 still has excellent recoil management when constant recoil is designed in it.

                              Comment

                              • txgunner00
                                Chieftain
                                • Mar 2011
                                • 2070

                                #30
                                Originally posted by stanc View Post
                                Stoner 63 -- so controllable even a child can shoot it.

                                (Check out the targets at the end of the video. )


                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erujkSM-HmY
                                I saw that kid shooting that gun at a New Years eve machine gun shoot at that range in either 2006 or 2007. Pretty cool.

                                edit- I dug around on my computer and found pictures of the kid but no good views of the gun. It was in Feb 2007. I think the new years eve shoot got rained out that year and this was the make up day. Pretty sweet gun. Far more controllable than the micro uzi that was also there.
                                Last edited by txgunner00; 12-21-2014, 12:21 AM.
                                NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

                                "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

                                George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

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