CFE 223 in the Grendel

[Joseph5]

65Whelen,
I am shooting 32 grains of CFE in with my 123gr bullets and 34 grains with the 100gr bullets. I worked up to these loads in 0.3grain steps from below max published loads monitoring my velocities with a chorine and my brass for pressure signs along the way. If I can ever get my house sold where I use to live so I can by a house where I do live now I will get my reloading gear set up and start doing a little more load development with different powders. CFE will be hard to beat though.

[Savage Shooter]

I was working up my first handloads using the OCW process, beginning at 28.7 gr. and I topped out at 32.0 grains CFE with the 123 gr. AMAX. For the 32.0 grs, the three shot group was 0.36" and average velocity was 2669 fps with ES of 16 and SD of 8. The velocity is in line with Joseph's and I had chosen to stop at 32 gr. CFE based on what others seemed to have felt was a comfortable "max" with a bit of room to spare. I found the same result and if can repeat that grouping consistently, I'd be ecstatic.

Prior to my handloads, I fired two five shot groups of Hornady Factory 123 AMAXs with one group averaging 2571fps with an SD=11 and the other averaged 2568 fps with SD=10, so very consistent.

PS. I was using a Magnetospeed Chronograph, which in a recent test vs. my Pro Chronograph set at 12' from the muzzle, was about 40 fps SLOWER than the "regular" chrono. So, someone else testing the 123 AMAXs on a standard Chrono might find that their speeds were higher than mine for the 123 Amax

[sneaky one]

Joseph 5 -- just so you know,,, I custom load my Gmx 94 grn. pills- same as a longer 100 std pill. I use 34.3 cfe- no issues at all for 4 yrs.
This is awesome feedback on this! 65Wh & I thank you for the data share.

The stock Gmx bullets have 2 grooves cut in for some pressure reliefs . This is how we all share-trade data here !

I cut the 95 Gmx to the same exact specs as the Barnes 100 TTSX. It out shoots the Barney, quite handily.....

[Savage Shooter]

Joseph 5 -- just so you know,,, I custom load my Gmx 94 grn. pills- same as a longer 100 std pill. I use 34.3 cfe- no issues at all for 4 yrs.
This is awesome feedback on this! 65Wh & I thank you for the data share.

The stock Gmx bullets have 2 grooves cut in for some pressure reliefs . This is how we all share-trade data here !

I cut the 95 Gmx to the same exact specs as the Barnes 100 TTSX. It out shoots the Barney, quite handily.....

Have you tried the Hornady 120 gr GMXs? I bought some to work up a hog hunting load, but do you (and your Grendel) prefer the 100 gr range with the 100 gr GMX or 100 TTSX?

[Joseph5]

Sneaky, thanks for the info. I stopped at 32 and 34 grains for the 123 and 100gr bullets because I knew I had some leeway pressure wise. I might be shooting prairie dogs at 100 degrees during the summer and hunting deer and elk in 20 degree weather and January coyotes at below zero. I did my load development at around 80 degree ambient temps. I don't know what kind of velocity/pressure changes I am experiencing with CFE but it doesn't seem to bee enough to matter so far. Savage shooter, I was thinking of loading some 120 GMX or Barnes TTSX for an Elk load but I have not gotten around to it yet.

[apynckel]

I did a load progression with Hornady 129 SST's and CFE223, but the connection between this username and that one got disconnected after the forum got attacked, lemme search for the data.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7106-129gr-SST-6.5-Grendel-Workup!&highlight=cfe223

Was able to get 2550 FPS at the muzzle with the 129's. Might not be enough for long range (300+ yrds) expansion, however.

[sneaky one]

Awesome job. Can always pm Bwild97- if he has an account still- I'll hack on hanka-- urr blunt fg. It's not scary on temps. Do the tests!

[apynckel]

Yea, Bwild hadn't done a load progression with CFE223 and the 129's yet, that I had found.

[sneaky one]

Joe 5, good call on the 34.0 cfe for a 100 grn. pill. This will soon be pressure tested , using my 95 Gmx- as a stand in. It should be a perfect example of pressures on the 100 range pills. I did shoot 1- 120 Gmx, expansion was poor- that's how I got into lightening them up, speed helps these pills open up Much better.

Been so busy here- everyday is Grendel day here,,,I had no idea of what I was getting into back in '08.!

apy, the 129 sst is a great pill. I hit a deer @ 400 yds. in 08'- windy day-35-40 mph. I hit it! Took the front leg off. Factory AA ammo. Maybe 2450 fps Muzzle vel. ?

Same deal- the Jacket is Gilding metal, just like the 123 sst. Very tough. Hornady rocks, guys! That's why I'm going after them first on new pills.( We'll have a lot to show them.)

By comparison- the 123 Amax has the Amp jacket, which is why it explodes- it's a target pill. Ultra thin basic copper jackets.

[OLd Man]

How would the 120gr Barnes TSX compare to the 123 gr Hornady for load development? Would 32 gr CFE be a safe top end or would case volume and compression get to be an issue with copper pills. What I'm looking for is an all around hunting load with a little better ability on bigger game. I intend to do a ladder test, but I want a good idea of where to stop.

[Joseph5]

I haven't shot any yet but I think 32grs would be way to much with a 120 TSX. There is load data for that bullet on the AA website.

[LRRPF52]

Hornady lists 31.2gr of CFE as the max with the 120gr GMX, which is also a monolithic copper premium projectile with relief bands. For the 120gr TSX, I would begin with the start load listed in Hornady's data, and build a trend line with your chronograph or magneto.

In Volume II, there is data for CFE and the 120gr TSX from a 20" barrel, maxing out at 30.3gr and 2468fps. Volume II also has the terminal ballistic performance data showing you expansion threshold of the 100gr TSX, but the 120gr TSX penetrated farther than any of the bullets RickOshay tested, blowing through 34" of Permagel. It is also the bullet that was used by Mark LaRue to take a bull elk at 407yds, from a 20" AR15 in 2007.

Hornady reached 2500fps from an 18" with the 120gr GMX using 31.2gr. If I were working up the load, I would run a pressure ladder with .3gr increments like I did with the 123gr A-MAX. Watch the trend in velocity increase to charge weight, and see where it starts to get squirrely on you. For me, that happened in the mid-2600fps region, but I would never mass-produce those. 2500fps from a 16" is plenty for me, and that was 8 loads lower than where I saw the departure, using .3gr increments.

The hardness of the monolithic pills contributes to a totally different start pressure characteristic, in that they don't like being forced into the rifling like cup and core pills do. This is why the data for them has to be treated differently. We had a former forum member that refused to grasp this concept, and pulled some load he found online for a totally different bullet that someone had published (that was over any max data from the industry sources), then seated a 120gr TSX on top of it and was getting 2820fps from a 24" barrel. When asked what his starting load was, it became apparent that he didn't use basic reloading guidelines, and went straight to this over max load for another bullet.

He then took the position that voices of warning were really trying to handicap his performance advantage, and adopted the idea that his 5R rifled barrel was giving him this magic performance, not additional overpressure. Keep in mind that we're talking about over 300fps faster than any published load for the 120gr TSX, basically in .260 Remington territory, which has a working pressure of 10,000psi higher than the Grendel, with 14gr more of case capacity.

Short story: Volume II had the data you seek, and I included it in this post. I would run the ladder and see where your particular rifle is at. Should be a fun exercise as well.

[Savage Shooter]

Do you know if anyone has run a side by side test with the 120 gr GMX vs the 120 gr. TSX and vs. the 120 gr. TTSX bullets? Hornady claims a higher BC for the GMX than Barnes for their TTSX (0.450 vs. 0.412). Does anyone know the minimum recommended expansion velocity for each bullet? Is there any real world experience among the horde as to which performs better on hogs or deer? Or will they perform comparably, leaving bullet placement the more important variable for sure, humane kills? (In which case it would be a little cheaper to practice with the GMX bullets as well as easier to find them. )

[sneaky one]

SS- not to totally change what's been brought up here - yet- , I have had over 7 yrs. working on the best wts. -2 from each manufacturer, on the lead free units.
Why so long of a time frame? Once I joined this forum, I realized that a many - shared my ideas on diff. wt., bullets- it does slow me down sending samples out to a certain many always.

But of the 3000 pills I sent out, I have some great feedback!

To shorten this up, I chose guys that could get results back that were needed in a certain way-by speeds. Plus on certain mediums= deer=gel=h2o jugs , bricks, concrete ,.

BANK - BULLET PROOF LAMINATED GLASS != Some tough shiite there boys!

What would work for 1 bbl. length , was only okay for another- using the same pill, & load.

A sneak peek into this = 105 on the heavy end for the - my fave bullet, the Gmx. The lighter is to be determined in 2 Weeks, I Was Told! It's cool, not carved in stone yet----

As far as the few other manus on leadfree pills, for the Grrr. Many tests have been done, we even tried an E tip in lighter wts... Pressure tests take time.

The stock 120 Gmx- will take game up close- through a 24" bbl. Or a boltie that can be pushed a bit more than the AR Grrr. More expansion, sometimes regardless of weight-

really makes this pill shine. The opening is so violent-when in lighter trim.
We chose the idea of the 18" as the std. to base it all upon= it won the poll for most popular. More soon, as I- we- get the data. Patience will get us a few great bullets.

[Savage Shooter]

I am wanting to work up a hog load for my 24" bbl, and I was not sure if I should try the 120 GMX or TTX or TTSX or if I needed to go with the lighter weight 100 gr TTSX for higher velocity/expansion. I could be shooting across a field at 200 yards or from a stand over bait at 50 yards, so I'm real interested in your up-coming results. I might have to be very judicious in my target selection (only smaller hogs if further away). I'm hunting with my sons and we'll also have my 30-06 loaded with a 165 gr GMX pushing 2850 fps, so that will have plenty of knock-down power. Unfortunately, it's a Remington 7400 autoloader, which is not exactly a tack-driver, 2-3 MOA at best, so I would hesitate to shoot that beyond 100 yards.