Projectile: Berger 6.5mm 130 AR Hybrid

[cory]

I contacted Berger today and this is the response I got.

Good afternoon Cory,

Thank you for your interest. This bullet has not yet been officially released. There were a limited number produced for testing and those have all been distributed. We do not anticipate another run until we get closer to our release date which has yet to be determined. While you are welcome to place a back order, there are a few things you should be aware of before doing so. First, ordering direct does not give you a shipping priority, when the bullets become available we will ship against our oldest orders first. Since news of this bullet has leaked there are a number of dealers already in line for this bullet. Also, we do not compete with our dealers where price is a concern. In most cases you will get a better price when going through the dealer. With that being said if you would still like to place your order you are more than welcome to do so. A credit card will be required at the time of order and your called will be charged when we ship. Please feel free to contact me with any further questions.


Kind Regards,
Stephanie Quick
Supervising Account Manager

On a second note, I found a serious con with this bullet, well actually Berger. I didn't realize until now that they're a CA based company. I try to avoid companies that are voluntarily stationed in occupied US. HAHA But seriously.

[sneaky one]

Push for it gang! 110 grns.

Grendel rocks with the bullets from 90-110 pills Well, maybe 95-108 , It's been a while ! I love the 95 Gmx;s, 80's too.

Umm certain ttsx pills are fine too. 90-110 grns.

Push onto the manufacturers as to what you want.

I pm'ed Bill A in 09 He said to stay with the 95-110 class , so I spent my time there, recentely. Exept for the lighter units. More later on these.,,,,

[cory]

Yes BFT , I agree on a few points on this pill. Yet a quick tweak on the frontal, can change the entire idea on these. Been there, done it all .

It's too heavy for speeds in the Grr, at 130. It's too hard to tweak this one.?? I wished that they made a 110 unit. hmmm...

With that BC how much speed do you need?

[kmon]

Got the following in email from Berger

"Thank you for contacting Berger Bullets. This bullet has just been released and is available from us with the following information for you.

Part number: 26195


Retail Price: $52.80"

Got the ones I have from www.DallasReloads.com

[sneaky one]

Spendy units .

[kmon]

I got a break from that price, Berger sells to individuals for suggested retail. Retailers buy at wholesale and apply their markup

[sneaky one]

Hmmmm...

[BluntForceTrauma]

I'm not saying I don't appreciate other bullet weights. I'm saying that for a 130-grain HPBT, I don't believe I could wish for a better bullet.

I'm also looking forward to Sierra expanding their Tipped MatchKing line into 6.5mm. If their new .308s are any indication, it seems they're not just slapping a tip on an existing ogive but are redesigning each weight using hybrid principles, so I expect good things from them, as well.

And, of course, I'm on record stumping for a monometal, tipped 90-grain of almost exactly the same form factor as Berger's new hybrid 130!

Things keep getting better!

[lrgrendel]

So please somebody explain. Let's for an instant PRETEND that the 123 gr SMK, LAPUA 123 Scenar and the Hornady 123 AMAX are within a couple of bucks of each other on a 100 bullet box. Give or take...

I am striving for performance at the max distance of the Grendel, what ever that might be....

Why would I pay almost TWICE the price for something that may or may not do a better job??

Target shooting NOT hunting.

[bwaites]

So please somebody explain. Let's for an instant PRETEND that the 123 gr SMK, LAPUA 123 Scenar and the Hornady 123 AMAX are within a couple of bucks of each other on a 100 bullet box. Give or take...

I am striving for performance at the max distance of the Grendel, what ever that might be....

Why would I pay almost TWICE the price for something that may or may not do a better job??

Target shooting NOT hunting.

You wouldn't, until you were sure it did. Then twice as much to win competition seems cheap! The easiest accuracy you ever find is what you buy! You EARN everything else!

[sneaky one]

lr, Grendel- hunt more on the web. Time spent, and $$ will find a way. You can wait for outcomes- or you can make them happen.

[MainDish]

New account here, but I've been watching this forum for a few years. Now that my barrel is broken in and coppered with a few boxes of AA, Hornady, and Precision Firearms ammo down the pipe, I'm ready to start reloading. Primary interest is hunting medium game and target shooting 500-800 yards or so.

Sneaky One, you seem to have a dislike for the heavier pills and favor 90-110 grain. I'm curious to understand more about that. I called AA a couple years ago with a metallurgy question and Bill A. took about an hour talking to me about my build, never mentioned that he preferred lighter, we just discussed a twist for my hunting goals.

Strictly speaking for me, I want to look at bullet impact energy and performance. The 129gr Nosler ABLR thrilled me when it posted a 1300 fps expansion velocity in animals. That would seem to be a game changer for this cartridge. That aside, compare a couple scenarios (JBM):

100gr Berger 2600fps: Supersonic to 700 yards, 332 ft-lbs energy @700 yards, 7.3 mils drop @700 yards, 2.6 mils 10mph windage @700. To keep the bullet above 600 ft-lbs (I think is wise for game) you are limited to about 450 yards.
129gr ABLR 2400fps: Supersonic to 1000 yards, 606 ft-lbs energy @700 yards, 7.1 mils drop @700 yards, 1.8 mils 10mph windage @700 yards.

I just guess at fair velocities so that could change the comparison slightly, but not a ton. I'd like to draw on the experiences of folks here to influence my opinions. In that spirit, why is the lighter bullet better in any way? BC seems to rule the day.

I've read some articles on the Applied Ballistics WEZ hit probability calculator from PrecisionRifleBlog. It would appear that Mr. Litz's tool would suggest that maximizing BC, and thus minimizing wind drift (since at best wind speed determination is an estimation not a measurement) is more important than muzzle velocity, ultra-tight groups, etc.

I look forward to the discussion.

[LRRPF52]

The lighter pills favor those who are looking for fast kills within closer ranges. Sneaky is typically shooting in the Minnesota region, so you have a lot of forest, thick vegetation, and not a lot of opportunities for many shots beyond 100yds.

The heavier pills are for those looking for pass-throughs at a wider set of ranges, like those of us out West who can easily run into longer shots. The 130gr VLD has already been used to take large game here in the mountains. Most guys shooting long range on animals will say that the Berger VLD's are great, as long as you have a broadside shot. The kills have been slower for those who have taken quartering shots.

Tracking an animal like a mule deer or elk at high altitude in the Rockies is not fun. I was just hiking in the foothills and mountains overlooking Salt Lake City yesterday evening, and we only went up to 5540ft elevation. It sucks the wind out of you, and it is very easy to get light-headed for a person who is out of shape.

Now keep in mind that I have never seen elk that low in elevation in this State. Mule deer, yes and quite frequently, even in the residential areas at the elevations that are right where the foothills and mountains join. I don't think I've seen elk anywhere below 7,000ft in Utah. In Colorado, they were always quite high as well. You need to be in shape if you're looking at even recovering a large animal from a close range shot, let alone from a hilltop across a draw that may be 200-300yds away.

I also am looking forward to what Sierra will do with the Tipped Match Kings. A 123gr Tipped SMK would be awesome. If they combined the Game King bullet core and jacket, with the Tipped Match King shaping and concentricity, they would have a sick dual-purpose bullet.

I would like to see a 107gr TMK, 123gr TMK, and 130gr TMK in the 6.5mm bores.

[MainDish]

I'd also like to see Sierra get into the high-BC hunting bullet game in those weights. The cost trajectory is going up and Sierra tends to have decent prices.

I guess I understand if a guy is planning that all shots will be within 100-200 yards. At that distance though we 6.5ers don't have much to brag about over the 6.8SPC, so I still like to think that my Nosler ABLR is somehow a better choice than a round ball even when the deer walks under my stand in bow range. It's something like bringing a Nomex race suit and driving gloves to the indoor go kart place.

I do both kinds of hunting. I remember feeling lucky when my (relatively slow) 160gr Accubond (not LR) out of a 7mm-08 dumped an antelope in it's tracks at 640 yards. The lucky feeling came when there was no blood or visible hole in the thing, and we joked that it had a heart attack. That bullet just didn't expand at that speed. I've also done the 5000-10000ft elevation hunting, and I agree that I would not want to track.
This is why I think that the actual terminal performance of the bullet is more important than muzzle velocity or weight, and I am eager to try the ABLR with their advertised 1300fps lower limit.

Have the lighter faster pills been shown to

[BluntForceTrauma]

First, MainDish, welcome!

As a very general rule of thumb, muzzle velocity can negate BC under 500 yards. Over 500 yards, BC rules. We're talking trajectory here, not necessarily energy. There was an excellent discussion on one of the forums I want to link to . . . give me a minute . . . dangnabit! Can't find it. Here's a good substitute discussion on wind drift in the meantime.

Sneaky's point — and it is very practical — is that 95% of hunting shots are under 500 yards.

What I'm excited about is that the 6.5 Grendel allows both high BC bullet noses AND, with lighter weight pills, high muzzle velocity. This is the last territory that remains to be explored in the 65G.

P.S. OK, this is the original long form of the article on the philosophy of hand loading I was looking for. Plenty of food for thought. There was a shorter excerpt on one of the forums, which is where I originally read it, but can't find. . . .