AR15 Quality vs Cost Curve

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  • cory
    Chieftain
    • Jun 2012
    • 2985

    AR15 Quality vs Cost Curve



    I put this little chart together as a teaching tool. I've grown to respect the insight here and would like y'alls comments on how far off I am and how I could make the chart more precise.

    I'm always trying to explain this curve to friends who are looking at getting into AR15 or looking to upgrade. I've about got a good engineer friend talked into building an AR15, so I pulled out excel and went to work on a visual representation.

    I'm not always as articulate as I'd like to be, but I can utilize excel with the best of them. haha
    "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
  • LRRPF52
    Super Moderator
    • Sep 2014
    • 8569

    #2
    If you could quantify the quality scale with a list of specifications and features, that would help even more. Things like:

    * Does the company have engineering staff?

    * Do they have a proactive TQM system where everyone takes ownership in the final product?

    Then get into the minutiae of the component and assembly materials science, dimensional uniformity, tolerances held, etc.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

    Comment

    • cory
      Chieftain
      • Jun 2012
      • 2985

      #3
      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
      If you could quantify the quality scale with a list of specifications and features, that would help even more. Things like:

      * Does the company have engineering staff?

      * Do they have a proactive TQM system where everyone takes ownership in the final product?

      Then get into the minutiae of the component and assembly materials science, dimensional uniformity, tolerances held, etc.
      You just took this to a whole other level.

      I like the way you think. HAHA
      "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

      Comment

      • Savage Shooter
        Warrior
        • Dec 2014
        • 241

        #4
        I agree with LRRPF - anyone who worked in a major industry in the late 80"s when the country underwent a huge push for "quality improvement" following Edwards Deming's Quality Circles, knows there are many ways to measure "quality". And one persons definition of "quality" might be scoffed at by others using different criteria. In firearms, I might postulate that "accuracy" and "reliability" are likely two of the most important measurable factors that would be considered in defining a "quality" gun. And, that's what you probably intended, Cory, and I applaud you for your attempt. I thought that your curve was shifted to the right several hundred dollars too high, but I just got a free e-copy of "Must Have AR-15 Upgrades" from Amazon, and started flipping through it. Wow, it wouldn't take long to match a curve like what you have based on the books "Must have" list. Unfortunately, now I am thinking about a JP Silent Captured Spring for $135 - for a freakin' "buffer spring" - but all the reviews I read had people saying it was worth every penny.

        If your chart is meant to include any sort of optics, then I guess it really should be pushed much farther right into even higher average spending territory. Damn, we better not let our wives see that chart.
        My "6.5" = 24" AA Overwatch upper 1/9 twist, NC based US Tactical lower, standard A4 6 position stock, AR Gold Trigger, JPS SCS buffer, Vortex 6-24 x 50 FFP PST with EBR-2C MOA reticle

        Comment

        • cory
          Chieftain
          • Jun 2012
          • 2985

          #5
          Originally posted by Savage Shooter View Post
          I agree with LRRPF - anyone who worked in a major industry in the late 80"s when the country underwent a huge push for "quality improvement" following Edwards Deming's Quality Circles, knows there are many ways to measure "quality". And one persons definition of "quality" might be scoffed at by others using different criteria. In firearms, I might postulate that "accuracy" and "reliability" are likely two of the most important measurable factors that would be considered in defining a "quality" gun. And, that's what you probably intended, Cory, and I applaud you for your attempt. I thought that your curve was shifted to the right several hundred dollars too high, but I just got a free e-copy of "Must Have AR-15 Upgrades" from Amazon, and started flipping through it. Wow, it wouldn't take long to match a curve like what you have based on the books "Must have" list. Unfortunately, now I am thinking about a JP Silent Captured Spring for $135 - for a freakin' "buffer spring" - but all the reviews I read had people saying it was worth every penny.

          If your chart is meant to include any sort of optics, then I guess it really should be pushed much farther right into even higher average spending territory. Damn, we better not let our wives see that chart.
          Thanks. For me, yes reliability and accuracy equals quality. I think this curve will roughly fit whatever your AR15 was built mission specific for. I'm curious to hear how well this fits Variable's light weight build.

          No it doesn't include other than iron sights.

          I also think this curve would fit optics as well. However, thanks to Vortex the steep incline would need to start earlier.
          "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

          Comment

          • LRRPF52
            Super Moderator
            • Sep 2014
            • 8569

            #6
            One very deceptive trend in the market that has been going for a while is companies pricing their rifles into $2000-$3000 + range, for simply including billet receivers, NiB coatings, and a unique handguard, but then they use garbage detents & lower parts, rack-grade barrel extensions, bolts that claim certain specs that aren't verified, spring steels that suck, and extractors and pins that don't meet the Mil-Spec requirements, which are actually pretty extensive.

            The owners/staff may have a certain degree of knowledge about limited aspects of the design and what works, but still don't know what they don't know. I have seen this with several new-comers to the market at SHOT when asking them questions about the products.

            There are also several companies that have done their homework, and are putting out some solid products in the AR15 market. Others have attempted to make a "list" of what comprises a Mil-spec AR15, but the lists I have seen are very rudimentary, often focusing on things that are of little significance, while ignoring critical aspects of the operating system and components.

            You would basically be looking at generating a customer-understandable Technical Data Package to make this chart quantifiable, but most customers don't have the attention span for that, so then it goes back to a reputation built on trust based on a manufacturer's history. Nobody wants to be a guinea pig with thousands of dollars, so marketing hype kicks in, and the trend takes its course.
            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

            www.AR15buildbox.com

            Comment

            • Savage Shooter
              Warrior
              • Dec 2014
              • 241

              #7
              Originally posted by cory View Post

              I also think this curve would fit optics as well. However, thanks to Vortex the steep incline would need to start earlier.
              Amen to that. Vortex optics are on my Grendel and Savage LRP 6.5 Creedmoor. IMHO they have some of the best reticles for long range Prairie Dog shooting, enabling accurate hold-off for wind adjustment, rather than having to dial it in. I have the EBR-2C MOA on my Grendel and the XLR-1 MOA on my Savage. And I am very happy with their glass and adjustments.
              My "6.5" = 24" AA Overwatch upper 1/9 twist, NC based US Tactical lower, standard A4 6 position stock, AR Gold Trigger, JPS SCS buffer, Vortex 6-24 x 50 FFP PST with EBR-2C MOA reticle

              Comment

              • pinetreebbs
                Warrior
                • Nov 2013
                • 184

                #8
                "Quality" is too vague. Adding fancy parts to a battle rifle increases costs but may not improve real world use, some might even degrade reliability, e.g., a target chamber for field use could cause extraction problems but would be critical in a target rifle.

                Factor in the purpose of the build including where it will be used e.g., reliability, accuracy, range vs hunting vs a battlefield. Then look at the actual cost to of meeting the intended application.

                Sample size, one off builds are not easily charted and may not represent overall production quality. This sort of chart is more applicable to production item from a factory.

                Yield, this one is tricky, if you take sample of production, say ten items out of a thousand, depending on how homogeneous production quality is, out of that thousand some will far exceed requirements and other may be way below requirements. The larger the sample size the more you will know how homogeneous a given lot will be. This is how tester A raves about the latest firearm from Acme Productions and tester B declares the new Acme Productions a POS, they might both be correct.

                As far as having a quality program goes, it's all about implementation. A fantastic QA manual and testing program that is not used is worthless. There are production facilities that do excellent work without a written program, quality work is just, "What they do."

                Comment

                • LRRPF52
                  Super Moderator
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 8569

                  #9
                  Excellent points pinetreebbs. What I have come to the conclusion of is that the culture of the company is what drives QA/TQM. If that CEO/owner says, "This thing isn't leaving the door unless it's right.", then instills that attitude in his/her employees, it blows away any arbitrary ISO certs that someone claims.

                  ISO is just a tool that can be used to quantify people doing the right things already, but if it is raised as a flag that automatically promises quality, then that's often a crutch for a flag pole, not a banner of excellence.

                  Excellence can really only be driven from the ownership. An employee at the bottom or mid-level will be an outlier if their standards are higher than the company's.
                  NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                  CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                  6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                  www.AR15buildbox.com

                  Comment

                  • Variable
                    Chieftain
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 2403

                    #10
                    Originally posted by cory View Post
                    Thanks. For me, yes reliability and accuracy equals quality. I think this curve will roughly fit whatever your AR15 was built mission specific for. I'm curious to hear how well this fits Variable's light weight build.

                    No it doesn't include other than iron sights.

                    I also think this curve would fit optics as well. However, thanks to Vortex the steep incline would need to start earlier.
                    LOL!!! I have no idea. I guess I'll know more when I finally get to taste whatever falls out of the oven. ;D

                    I pretty much know what I want, but since that doesn't really exist I'll just keep compromising (only where I have to) until I get as close as I can.

                    If it ends up being accurate, reliable, and light as a feather, then I'll rank it up there for my purposes.
                    Life member NRA, SAF, GOA, WVSRPA (and VFW). Also member WVCDL. Join NOW!!!!!
                    We either hang together on this, or we'll certainly HANG separately.....

                    Comment

                    • montana
                      Chieftain
                      • Jun 2011
                      • 3209

                      #11
                      Quality, reliability and accuracy can be subjective. Accurate for what use? Quality being for what result? Reliable for what intention of use? If I were jumping out of planes to bring a fight to bad guys my reliability requirements would not be the same for a local long range match where 80 rounds would be the limit. My Q,R,A requirements would be different for a safe Queen with gold inlay and $1000 customized Cerakote job compared to my multi-gun needs. I think the intended use needs to be well established so the best assessment could be made for the average cost of the intended use. Once the intended use is established then the requirements of manufacture and parts suitability could be determined. A good example: I love clamp on adjustable gas blocks but I would never use them on a true fighting rifle where a pinned non adjustable gas block tuned to my ammunition would be one of my absolute requirements. The barrel, trigger parts, hand guard, stock etc would be determined by what my intended use would be. The optics and sights fall along the same sequence.

                      Comment

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