RPD drum, non-disintegrating metallic link. Those links look more difficult to manufacture than the NATO disintegrating links.
I'll tell you, right now, if I was in a gunner position, I would take a Grendel LMG over a SAW or M240 position without reservation, even not knowing the 500m plus terminal performance of even a mediocre 120gr FMJ. I have a feeling every gunner I've known would feel the same, as well as the current guys serving in that capacity.
As do the non-disintegrating links for the vz59 and PKM 7.62x54R machine guns. But, the RPD and its non-disintegrating link belts seem to be the only readily available option to demonstrate the viability of a 6.5 Grendel belt-fed LMG.Originally Posted by LRRPF52
Yeah, but if this idea is ever presented to the V4 militaries as a proposed replacement for 7.62x54R/7.62x51, don't you think it likely they'd want to see equal (or at least near-equal) terminal effects?I'll tell you, right now, if I was in a gunner position, I would take a Grendel LMG over a SAW or M240 position without reservation, even not knowing the 500m plus terminal performance of even a mediocre 120gr FMJ.
The Norma 120gr FMJ is certainly not the best 6.5 ball projectile that could be used in comparison tests with the 7.62 rounds, especially since standard 7.62x54R ball has a steel-core bullet. It's a pity the Swedish 6.5x55 steel-core AP bullets can't be had for such testing.
Last edited by stanc; 09-01-2011 at 07:29 PM.
They are too heavy for the Grendel anyway. To be fair, you need a 120'ish grain Grendel steel core bullet.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper
Hmm. Perhaps you're thinking of the (139gr) lead-core Ball projectiles? IIRC, the steel-core AP bullet is only 113 grains.
That'd be longer than a Lapua 144gr FMJ, and use up too much powder space.To be fair, you need a 120'ish grain Grendel steel core bullet.
I dunno what the optimum weight would be for a steel-core 6.5 bullet, but it looks to me like 110 grains would be about max.
Last edited by stanc; 10-24-2011 at 05:36 AM.
The Visegrad 4 have already been looking at new weapons systems. Polish Grom have been heavily influenced by a tight working relationship with certain elements in the US Spec Ops community, and the days of AK's and Vz58's are limited as these guys have felt the weight difference between an M4A1 w/ SOPMOD, and an AK with rails, light, Aimpoint, etc. The AK's days are numbered in Eastern Europe. It's already unacceptably front heavy in 1947 and 1953 forms, let alone with modern accessories attached. The Kreb's kits and Brugger & Thommet rails make an AK an even more ungainly beast of an Assault Rifle.
I don't see a need for them to load the same projectile for assault rifles and LMG's anyway, since they have had different end-user logistics packages for PKM's, MG3's, Vz's, SVD's, AK74's, MPi-AKS-74N's, Tantals, and so forth. A steel rod penetrator like the 7N6 or 7N10 would be great, with plenty of lead weight, and a thin projectile jacket. There is zero reason to have a strictly belt-fed LMG use the same projectiles as a mag-fed AR.
V4's biggest driver is Poland right now, and they have gained a lot of real-world operational experience in GWOT with their special forces and airborne units in Iraq and Afghanistan that the Russians simply have not. As I have worked with other nations in the region, I'm advocating them to either look at rebarreling existing rifles in inventory as the bores die, or adopting a new carbine entirely. No significant developments have been made as far as Light Machineguns are concerned since the Ultimax 100, and to a very limited extent, the KAC LMG. It gets overlooked too often, due to the distraction of trying to "fix" the Armalite/M4/Colt Commando...the one weapon system that isn't broken and is highly-favored by units that can choose whatever they want, literally, since no later than 1961, and is still the main go-to individual carbine in SAS, SBS, SF, NAVSPECWAR, Ranger Regiment, MARSOC, Force Recon, LRRPS/LRS, and a host of other countries' special ops where the M16 family is not their primary service rifle.
One of the biggest limitations is the lack of much development in the private sector regarding LMG's, because everyone wants to tinker with carbines and rifles, versus belt-fed. We'll see how it goes. I know what cartridge I would build around right now...
Last edited by LRRPF52; 09-01-2011 at 09:17 PM.
The Baltics and Finland are long overdue for a modern LMG and Assault Rifle/Carbine with modern accessory integration architecture. Estonia is using a bunch of Galils the Israelis dumped on them, along with MG3's in 7.62 NATO. Finland is using the out-of-production Rk95 in 7.62x39, some ancient 7.62x39 mag-fed LMG and PKM's. Latvia and Lithuania have had AKS-74 variants, but the Lithuanian SF really like paratrooper SAW's with modernized kits in A-stan. The region is way overdue for some weapon upgrades for certain, especially when you compare the turn of the century from the late 1800's into the 1900's, and look at the quantum shifts in small arms development generated by Maxim, Browning, and Garand...metallic cartridges had already become dominant in the later 1800's in pistols, and were taking over rifle chamberings. With us at the year 2011, which corresponds to the century-ago 1911, I wonder how we're doing compared to that era. The cased telescoping tech is the biggest thing I think, if it can be successful, especially for dismounts. That would be our era's quantum leap.
This is why the modular weapon system approach is the best avenue to pursue, so operating system and feed can be upgraded as the technology advances. Either way, I think we'll actually see some developments happen in the next two decades, where the AK will be looked at like a Mauser or Mosin Nagant, but still be around of course. The AR will continue to influence designs as far as ergos and modularity are concerned, and accessory integration will be the trend most sought after by developed countries. Who knows if metallic cartridges will be in cutting-edge weapons...
The 6.5 AP Projectiles I have came from 6.5x55 ammo, and they weighed considerably more than 113 grains before I machined them down. I couldn't get decent velocities with them, only about 2300 FPS, and they wouldn't penetrate 1/2" steel. I've machined them down to 108 grains by trimming the tails, so we'll see what happens.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper
Interesting. Are you sure your bullets don't have tungsten cores?
I was going by info on the Swedish military ammo website for weight of the steel-core AP, so I can't verify the accuracy of the 113gr figure.
A steel penetrator design based off the 7N6 or 7N10 would facilitate the same velocities as a standard FMJ. Just look at the 5.45x39 velocities for those at 2900 fps out of a 16.3" barrel, with projectile weights at 56gr. M4 with M855 62gr out of 14.5" barrel is 2900+ (not the British down-loaded weak ammo for the L85, but full-power M855). A 120gr 6.5 running quick with the narrow steel rod would smoke some steel. A 130gr LMG load could also be considered, with the right powder. Personally, I wouldn't want crazy penetration in AR's unless dealing with body armor, in which case you would need extreme velocity and light projectiles with small penetrators. Those would have limited effectiveness at distances past 400-500, whereas a standard weight projectile would break through mud, brick, and earthen barriers better out of an LMG. I don't want that for my door-kickers...too much blue on blue.
Either way, you're looking at no less than 4 different projectiles for the dismount force logistics structure: Standard AR load, Standard LMG, AP, Tracer. Notice we haven't even covered DM/Sniper, which is where this cartridge really shines as well, with the 123gr Scenar/SMK types.
Last edited by LRRPF52; 09-01-2011 at 09:50 PM.
I know the Czechs are fielding the CZ805, but I couldn't find any indication that Poland or Hungary were planning to replace their AK variants.
No kidding. Hungarian AK63 MFThe Kreb's kits and Brugger & Thommet rails make an AK an even more ungainly beast of an Assault Rifle.
Granted, but isn't that what everybody does (except the Chinese)?I don't see a need for them to load the same projectile for assault rifles and LMG's anyway... There is zero reason to have a strictly belt-fed LMG use the same projectiles as a mag-fed AR.
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