Grendel LMG

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • LRRPF52
    Super Moderator
    • Sep 2014
    • 8569

    That video Stan posted of the M27 during a USMC live fire shows why I'm not a big fan of a box mag fed LMG in the Squad.

    The M27 also isn't anywhere near as controllable as designs that are now 80 years old, some of which were German. The Sturmgewehr itself remains one of the only controllable select-fire intermediate cartridge rifles if you look at constant recoil principle.

    Another was the Stoner 63A. Watch how the gun barely moves even in the assault rifle configuration:



    There are two major technological developments that have really changed LMGs in the Squad though that deserve mentioning:

    1. Widespread use of optics

    2. Own the Night Aiming systems

    These 2 developments do make a magazine-fed IAR more viable, with a major consideration: High levels of training for the IAR gunner.

    In my experience, those levels of training rarely happen in most infantry units because of training distractions, unambitious leadership who are content with status quo, and limited training resources for larger units.

    In Ranger Regiment, those levels of training are the standard, to the extent that deployments with 150 missions within a 180 day period are vacations from the Stateside training cycle.
    Last edited by LRRPF52; 12-06-2017, 10:51 PM.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

    Comment

    • pinzgauer
      Warrior
      • Mar 2011
      • 440

      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
      That video Stan posted of the M27 during a USMC live fire shows why I'm not a big fan of a box mag fed LMG in the Squad.
      that's where my head was at, and I'm not a user!

      The M27 also isn't anywhere near as controllable as designs that are now 80 years old, some of which were German. The Sturmgewehr itself remains one of the only controllable select-fire intermediate cartridge rifles if you look at constant recoil principle.

      Another was the Stoner 63A. Watch how the gun barely moves even in the assault rifle configuration:
      That Stoner 63 was amazing! had always heard, but never seen video. I want one! How did we miss this and get the minimi?

      There are two major technological developments that have really changed LMGs in the Squad though that deserve mentioning:

      1. Widespread use of optics

      2. Own the Night Aiming systems
      My understanding is that this has improved SAW effectiveness as well. Even in the last 5-10 years.

      These 2 developments do make a magazine-fed IAR more viable, with a major consideration: High levels of training for the IAR gunner.
      That is my take-away, we are training limited on all of this stuff, even in active line units. Does not make sense to debate 400+ yard carbine 5.56/grendel performance if you don't teach/train 200-300 yard stuff as much as needed. And getting live fire for stand-off (SAW/203/AT) is apparently harder than rifle/carbine.

      Interesting stuff, all, though.

      Comment

      • LRRPF52
        Super Moderator
        • Sep 2014
        • 8569

        My understanding why we got the FN Minimi was because of the 3-way NATO nation requirement for the licensed manufacture of the F-16A/B.

        Denmark and Norway had already agreed to the deal and were waiting on Belgium to join, otherwise it wouldn't have been a viable option for only 2 nations to attempt to manufacture the multirole fighter.

        Belgium smartly negotiated to include their SAW entrant as the deciding factor, then they would gladly jump aboard the F-16A/B licensed mfg deal.

        The US was providing the engines and much of the critical components, while the European partners would manufacture the airframes, so there was a lot of money to be had all around for General Dynamics, Pratt & Whitney, and the other sub contractors.

        Instead of the US Army getting the Colt LMG, Ford Aerospace LMG, or HK select-fire SAW entrants, we got an AK smashed together with a MAG58 feed tray mechanism inside of a welded sheet receiver with a lot of slop between the parts, especially the fire control mechanism housing and how it attached to the receiver.

        Since World War II, the Infantryman has basically been neglected as to his weapons, equipment, and training. More focus has been allocated to armored personnel carriers, tanks, artillery, and Army aviation because those were correctly seen as more decisive systems in conventional warfare, and proven as such in the Gulf War. The only problem is that every other war we've fought has been an Infantry and SOF-centric asymmetric engagement driven by concern for collateral damage of civilian populations, elusive insurgents that require small arms fire to engage under restrictive ROEs, and adaptive combined component commands with better trained dismounted soldiers.

        The budget still dictates that the conventional systems will get the funding, while infantry might get a bunch of modern weapons and equipment, but very little training, and most senior leadership seem to be perfectly comfortable with that.
        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

        www.AR15buildbox.com

        Comment

        • hill37
          Warrior
          • Apr 2017
          • 636

          The members of the boot camp platoon that did the initial MARINE CORPS trials of the 63 have (had) a face book page. stoner platoon 236. If its still up they should know how good or bad it was.

          Comment

          • stanc
            Banned
            • Apr 2011
            • 3430

            Originally posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
            Mag changes are quick.
            Wanna see how fast it's possible to reload a belt-fed? Check out the last 30 seconds of this video.


            Comment

            • stanc
              Banned
              • Apr 2011
              • 3430

              Hey, anybody here understand Norwegian? I'm wondering why the gunners put their faces to the mat before and after firing their brand new Minimi LMGs.


              Comment

              • dobrodan
                Bloodstained
                • Feb 2014
                • 37

                Originally posted by stanc View Post
                Hey, anybody here understand Norwegian? I'm wondering why the gunners put their faces to the mat before and after firing their brand new Minimi LMGs.


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dpyf7TTi2s
                Standard starting and ending position from prone shooting to allow the shooting instructors to see when everybody are ready to start, and also to see when they are finished firing.

                Comment

                • dobrodan
                  Bloodstained
                  • Feb 2014
                  • 37

                  Now, that is how not to shoot a machinegun.

                  Also, if he had to change ammo-boxes, that reload would take a lot longer. Especially if he was on the move...

                  Comment

                  • BluntForceTrauma
                    Administrator
                    • Feb 2011
                    • 3897

                    Dobrodan, I know you have some strong opinions about machine guns. What is your opinion about a belt-fed vs. mag-fed SAW?
                    :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                    :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                    Comment

                    • LRRPF52
                      Super Moderator
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 8569

                      The challenges with mag-fed Squad-level Light Support Weapons are:

                      * Magazine capacity limits situational awareness and the ability to sustain fire. Belt-fed weapons allow the gunner to focus entirely on the TGT and area around the TGT while firing bursts.

                      * Magazines add a lot of weight and bulk to the SAW/Auto Rifleman's load, especially if you try to address the limited magazine capacity with drums.

                      * Lack of quick barrel change feature on a weapon intended for higher volume of fire

                      With drum mags, they are great to have in the gun for your first mag, but then what do you do with them? With links, I just let the links lay where they fall, no issues. With drums, I now need to retain that drum after it's expended, then reload it once I get resupplied with ammo. When I get resupplied with linked ammo, I either pull the 200rd containers from the ammo can and slap one directly onto the gun, or take the linked ammo out and feed it into one of the Cordura nut sacks that attach to the gun, very fast. If there is a metallic drum, you pull the rear plate off, feed the linked ammo in, close the back, and you're ready to go.

                      Linked ammo in soft ammo bags weighs less than magazine contained ammo.



                      It helps to better understand some of the challenges if people could see how we employ machine-guns at the Squad level. It's absolutely nothing like the movies, and involves a lot of team work, with SAWs covering specific avenues of approach, manning blocking positions, or setting up in certain positions for ambushes. There is quite a bit of study required to learn Small Unit Tactics to get a better idea of what actually happens.

                      The driving force behind the current push for IAR in the Marines is more as a DM and limited burst IAR, with more focus on the precision that optics and accurate barrels allow. What gets overlooked between the Marines and the Army are how USMC Infantry Squads are organized. They have 3 Fire Teams, whereas the US Army went full abortion and did a top-down MTO&E that ignored decades of combat lessons learned from junior leaders, and instead decided to structure all of its Infantry Squads around the Bradley Fighting Vehicle crew and soldier compartment limitations, even though none of the Light Infantry, Airborne, or Airmoblie units have Bradleys anywhere close to them. That means a 9-man Rifle Squad, which is really an oversized Fire Team.



                      A Marine Infantry Rifle Squad looks like a small platoon, and their Infantry Platoons look like small companies. There is a significant advantage in flexibility with the USMC MTO&E because as soon as you take casualties, there are plenty of guys in the trail fire team to either CASEVAC them, or fill in the attrited Team's position and continue the momentum of an attack. They have a Rifle Squad Leader and 3 Fire Teams of 4 men each, for a total of 13 pipe swingers.

                      The US Army Infantry Squad has no such luck, which is interesting because all of the post-combat (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) AARs that were conducted with combat-experienced junior NCOs and Lieutenants all concluded that 11 men was the bare minimum needed for a capable Infantry Squad. Why the US Army subjects all of its Light, Airmobile, and Airborne forces to the 9-man Bradly Squad has more to do with the ill-conceived "Army of Excellence" initiative of the 1980s and their management of manpower from a top-down approach, rather than building from a Fire Team-up approach as previously done. They didn't care about the Infantry really, since they had so much capability with Armor, Artillery, and Aviation, and figured Infantry was more of an after-thought. Grenada, Panama, Mogadishu, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq would all expose the folly of that thinking.
                      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                      www.AR15buildbox.com

                      Comment

                      • stanc
                        Banned
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 3430

                        Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                        With drum mags, they are great to have in the gun for your first mag, but then what do you do with them? With links, I just let the links lay where they fall, no issues. With drums, I now need to retain that drum after it's expended, then reload it once I get resupplied with ammo.
                        To be fair, you have to do all of that with nutsacks, too.

                        Comment

                        • LRRPF52
                          Super Moderator
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 8569

                          Originally posted by stanc View Post
                          To be fair, you have to do all of that with nutsacks, too.
                          They collapse and stuff into a much smaller space when they're empty, which is one of the main things I like about them.

                          They are also quiet, unlike drums. Drums resonate like a percussion instrument when impacted. We would even silence the 200rd plastic SAW ammo drums with MRE cardboard as a noise dampener.

                          The cloth ones are far superior I found.
                          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                          CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                          6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                          www.AR15buildbox.com

                          Comment

                          • dobrodan
                            Bloodstained
                            • Feb 2014
                            • 37

                            Comment

                            • BluntForceTrauma
                              Administrator
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 3897

                              Appreciate your comments. As LRRPF52 pointed out and as you are doing, the whole issue needs to be viewed in the bigger context.
                              :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                              :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                              Comment

                              • Buck2732
                                Warrior
                                • Feb 2012
                                • 207

                                This is something that has been doing the rounds over my side of the pond as well. Though from a slightly different angle. We ended the second WW with a mag fed LMG (BREN) and a a heavy MG (Vickers) both were kept until we adopted 7.62. Then the LMG was converted to 7.62 and eventually relegated to support arms, though some inf units kept them on. We adopted the FN MAG and fettled with it to make it our own (GPMG). When the dust (or should that be peat settled) after the Falklands operation. Our small unit tactics, were up revised. One of the lessons learned was that units that took both the LMG and GPMG in their sections had an easier time suppressing the enemy and winning the fire fight.

                                So when we adopted the 5.56 each 8 man section had two LSWs each gunner had 9x30rnd mags and extra mags carried through out the section. The ammo scale ended up at 15x30rnd mags per LSW. Fast forward a few years, units started to add the GPMG back in to the section organisation, as there was a distinct lack of sustained covering fire from the LSWs. So now we had a mix of ammo in the section 7.62 and 5.56. We eventually gave up the GPMGs and moved them to a dedicated fire support group. We replace the LSW and GPMG with what we call the LMG (FN Minimi).

                                So we have gone Mag, belt, mag and back to belt. The decision by the USMC to go to the IAR to us looks like a retrograde step.
                                Buck2732

                                "You will know you are in a nuclear attack by the bright flash, loud explosion, widespread destruction, intense heat, strong winds and the rising of a mushroom cloud".

                                "I have no idea what weapons will be used in the next world war... but I do know that world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones". A Einstein.

                                PER ARDUA

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X