Grendel LMG

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  • stanc
    Banned
    • Apr 2011
    • 3430

    Grendel LMG

    Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
    I think the only real environment for the Grendel to gain traction in is amongst the Eastern European Countries that are aware of the Russian threat, while NATO leaves them out to dry. The biggest issue for them is that 5.56, 7.62 NATO, & 7.62x54R are the dominant cartridges in their small arms inventories, with 7.62x39 on its way out in many cases, along with 5.45x39 being displaced by 5.56 NATO. Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary have formed a new military alliance separate from NATO since they see the writing on the wall.

    ...the biggest and most important factor that would make the Grendel get noticed is if a modern LMG was chambered in it, and shown to provide the same downrange benefits as 7.62 GMPG's such as the PKM and MAG58, only from a much smaller package.

    The adoption of the Grendel in Eastern Europe would already have a logistics framework in-place for brass and ammo with Lapua and PPU from the North and South, but weapons and magazines would be the main new items to be purchased. Selling points for budget-strapped countries:

    * Longer barrel life
    * One-caliber small arms system potential
    * Longer weapon life with lower chamber pressures
    * Inherent accuracy potential
    * Existing framework for ammunition components
    * Existing framework for barrel blanks in 6.5mm, a popular European bore
    * Existing framework for projectiles
    Originally posted by JASmith View Post
    The most recent breath of fresh air is the observation by LRRPF52 that some East European countries might develop an interest in the cartridge. Let's help him pursue that notion and see where it takes us.
    Okay. What can we do in that regard?

    It looks to me like the only practical option to prove the concept is to Grendelize an RPD light machine gun, then put it up against a vz59 or PKM.

    That would be rather expensive, though, so I'd suggest a more modest first step: Buy an RPD belt and see how well (or poorly) 6.5 Grendel rounds fit in it.

    IMO, a second (or parallel) step would also seem prudent: Do comparison testing of 6.5 FMJ vs 7.62 FMJ. Comparing barrier penetration and other characteristics would confirm or refute the idea that a 6.5 LMG can deliver the desired performance.

    If those steps produce acceptable results, then consideration can be given to acquiring and converting an RPD. (Perhaps a Grendel Guild project? Maybe DSArms could be convinced to help?)

    Comments? Other proposals?

  • RangerRick

    #2
    Here a link to a belt site:



    Scroll down to see the RPD belt.

    Type Control-+ to zoom in and control-0 to reset the browser to normal size.

    Comment

    • stanc
      Banned
      • Apr 2011
      • 3430

      #3
      Thanks, Rick. Unfortunately, that site is apparently just informational. It says the items shown are not for sale.

      But, DSArms lists two 50-rd belts with a drum for $24.95



      I haven't found anyplace where one can buy a single RPD belt, let alone a 10-link segment like I'd need here in Kalifornia.

      Comment

      • RangerRick

        #4
        Originally posted by stanc View Post
        Thanks, Rick. Unfortunately, that site is apparently just informational. It says the items shown are not for sale.

        But, DSArms lists two 50-rd belts with a drum for $24.95



        I haven't found anyplace where one can buy a single RPD belt, let alone a 10-link segment like I'd need here in Kalifornia.
        Yeah, that was just for comparison, but the pictures are crappy compared to the ds arms site. The sides of the link don't look terribly sloped so they may work with the Grendel. The part of the link that supports the neck will be very loose, though. Don't know if it will cause trouble or not.

        Comment

        • RangerRick

          #5
          Originally posted by stanc View Post
          But, DSArms lists two 50-rd belts with a drum for $24.95



          I haven't found anyplace where one can buy a single RPD belt, let alone a 10-link segment like I'd need here in Kalifornia.
          All I saw was a 100 round belt and drum, but I ordered it. If you can't have that belt in CA I can cut off 10 rounds worth and send it to you.
          If the belt works out OK, maybe we can take up a collection to get a semi-auto RPD ($2,100) and get them to make one of their barrels in 6.5 Grendel.

          When I get the belt, I'll load it up with Grendel brass and see how it looks.

          Rick

          Comment

          • stanc
            Banned
            • Apr 2011
            • 3430

            #6
            Originally posted by RangerRick View Post
            The sides of the link don't look terribly sloped so they may work with the Grendel.
            Yeah, it might. Won't know until somebody actually tries it.
            The part of the link that supports the neck will be very loose, though. Don't know if it will cause trouble or not.
            It doesn't appear to contact the neck at all, so there shouldn't be any trouble in that aspect.



            But, no matter. It's obvious from the complete lack of response to this thread that nobody is interested in advancing the idea of 6.5 Grendel for Eastern Europe, not even the person who originally proposed it, or the one who called it a "breath of fresh air" that we should help pursue.
            Last edited by stanc; 08-30-2011, 06:27 PM.

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            • stanc
              Banned
              • Apr 2011
              • 3430

              #7
              Originally posted by RangerRick View Post
              All I saw was a 100 round belt and drum, but I ordered it.
              The ad says 100-rd belt, but if you look carefully at the photo, there's a 50-rd belt in the drum and another 50-rd belt outside. I don't know if 100-rd belts were even made.

              You can see in the video above there are two, 50-rd sections, with one falling off as he's shooting while walking, then the second section falls off when he's firing prone.
              If you can't have that belt in CA I can cut off 10 rounds worth and send it to you.
              If the belt works out OK, maybe we can take up a collection to get a semi-auto RPD ($2,100) and get them to make one of their barrels in 6.5 Grendel.

              When I get the belt, I'll load it up with Grendel brass and see how it looks.
              Oh, crap. Didn't know you were gonna do that. I should've made my previous post earlier today, before you spent the money. Rats!

              Comment

              • bwaites
                Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 4445

                #8
                Some of us ARE interested, but just don't have a lot to contribute or time to post after we do everything else we are supposed to do! But...we are more than willing to contribute financially to advancement of the ideas!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  OK, can you expand on the caption for post #6?

                  It looks like at least part of the belt is metal -- is there cloth there too?

                  There isn't much in the way of explanation ---

                  Comment

                  • stanc
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2011
                    • 3430

                    #10
                    There's no cloth. Entire belt is metal. I'm not sure what else you wish to know?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      RPD drum, non-disintegrating metallic link. Those links look more difficult to manufacture than the NATO disintegrating links.

                      I'll tell you, right now, if I was in a gunner position, I would take a Grendel LMG over a SAW or M240 position without reservation, even not knowing the 500m plus terminal performance of even a mediocre 120gr FMJ. I have a feeling every gunner I've known would feel the same, as well as the current guys serving in that capacity.

                      Comment

                      • stanc
                        Banned
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 3430

                        #12
                        Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                        RPD drum, non-disintegrating metallic link. Those links look more difficult to manufacture than the NATO disintegrating links.
                        As do the non-disintegrating links for the vz59 and PKM 7.62x54R machine guns. But, the RPD and its non-disintegrating link belts seem to be the only readily available option to demonstrate the viability of a 6.5 Grendel belt-fed LMG.
                        I'll tell you, right now, if I was in a gunner position, I would take a Grendel LMG over a SAW or M240 position without reservation, even not knowing the 500m plus terminal performance of even a mediocre 120gr FMJ.
                        Yeah, but if this idea is ever presented to the V4 militaries as a proposed replacement for 7.62x54R/7.62x51, don't you think it likely they'd want to see equal (or at least near-equal) terminal effects?

                        The Norma 120gr FMJ is certainly not the best 6.5 ball projectile that could be used in comparison tests with the 7.62 rounds, especially since standard 7.62x54R ball has a steel-core bullet. It's a pity the Swedish 6.5x55 steel-core AP bullets can't be had for such testing.
                        Last edited by stanc; 09-01-2011, 07:29 PM.

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                        • bwaites
                          Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 4445

                          #13
                          Originally posted by stanc View Post
                          The Norma 120gr FMJ is certainly not the best 6.5 ball projectile that could be used in comparison tests with the 7.62 rounds, especially since standard 7.62x54R ball has a steel-core bullet. It's a pity the Swedish 6.5x55 steel-core AP bullets can't be had for such testing.
                          They are too heavy for the Grendel anyway. To be fair, you need a 120'ish grain Grendel steel core bullet.

                          Comment

                          • stanc
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 3430

                            #14
                            Originally posted by bwaites View Post
                            They are too heavy for the Grendel anyway.
                            Hmm. Perhaps you're thinking of the (139gr) lead-core Ball projectiles? IIRC, the steel-core AP bullet is only 113 grains.
                            To be fair, you need a 120'ish grain Grendel steel core bullet.
                            That'd be longer than a Lapua 144gr FMJ, and use up too much powder space.

                            I dunno what the optimum weight would be for a steel-core 6.5 bullet, but it looks to me like 110 grains would be about max.
                            Last edited by stanc; 10-24-2011, 05:36 AM.

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                            • #15
                              The Visegrad 4 have already been looking at new weapons systems. Polish Grom have been heavily influenced by a tight working relationship with certain elements in the US Spec Ops community, and the days of AK's and Vz58's are limited as these guys have felt the weight difference between an M4A1 w/ SOPMOD, and an AK with rails, light, Aimpoint, etc. The AK's days are numbered in Eastern Europe. It's already unacceptably front heavy in 1947 and 1953 forms, let alone with modern accessories attached. The Kreb's kits and Brugger & Thommet rails make an AK an even more ungainly beast of an Assault Rifle.

                              I don't see a need for them to load the same projectile for assault rifles and LMG's anyway, since they have had different end-user logistics packages for PKM's, MG3's, Vz's, SVD's, AK74's, MPi-AKS-74N's, Tantals, and so forth. A steel rod penetrator like the 7N6 or 7N10 would be great, with plenty of lead weight, and a thin projectile jacket. There is zero reason to have a strictly belt-fed LMG use the same projectiles as a mag-fed AR.

                              V4's biggest driver is Poland right now, and they have gained a lot of real-world operational experience in GWOT with their special forces and airborne units in Iraq and Afghanistan that the Russians simply have not. As I have worked with other nations in the region, I'm advocating them to either look at rebarreling existing rifles in inventory as the bores die, or adopting a new carbine entirely. No significant developments have been made as far as Light Machineguns are concerned since the Ultimax 100, and to a very limited extent, the KAC LMG. It gets overlooked too often, due to the distraction of trying to "fix" the Armalite/M4/Colt Commando...the one weapon system that isn't broken and is highly-favored by units that can choose whatever they want, literally, since no later than 1961, and is still the main go-to individual carbine in SAS, SBS, SF, NAVSPECWAR, Ranger Regiment, MARSOC, Force Recon, LRRPS/LRS, and a host of other countries' special ops where the M16 family is not their primary service rifle.

                              One of the biggest limitations is the lack of much development in the private sector regarding LMG's, because everyone wants to tinker with carbines and rifles, versus belt-fed. We'll see how it goes. I know what cartridge I would build around right now...
                              Last edited by Guest; 09-01-2011, 09:17 PM.

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