Well, I can check again, but I'm pretty sure they were magnetic.Originally Posted by stanc
Going to be next week, though, I'm in the middle of a garage/loading room remodel.
Well, I can check again, but I'm pretty sure they were magnetic.
Going to be next week, though, I'm in the middle of a garage/loading room remodel.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper
A college room mate of mine is a retired Army bird Colonel. He was a Special Forces Officer and Polish speaker. He helped the Poles set up their Special Forces school as a special project right before he retired.
If we get anywhere with this I can approach him about a contact point there.
I have a belt on order from DS Arms. I'll post picks with Grendel brass and 7.62x39 brass in it side by side. I'll load up some Norma FMJs to 2.205 and see how much powder we can get in.
Rick
I haven't seen a sectional view of the 7N6 and 7N10, but in any case, what I was thinking of is the use of mild steel cores in 7.62x54R ammo, and the possibility that the V4 would also use the same construction in bullets for 6.5 Grendel, should they adopt it.
Maybe, but you're not going to get anywhere near 2900 fps with a 6.5 120gr. According to Bill W, in a 19.5" barrel the 123gr SMK ammo from Black Hills did only 2550-2575 fps, and he considered that a hot load. If MV is kept down to 2500-2525 fps, it'll only be doing ~2400 fps from a 14.5" tube.Just look at the 5.45x39 velocities for those at 2900 fps out of a 16.3" barrel, with projectile weights at 56gr. M4 with M855 62gr out of 14.5" barrel is 2900+. A 120gr 6.5 running quick with the narrow steel rod would smoke some steel.
IMO you're being optimistic about getting two different Ball loads adopted, but otherwise I agree.Either way, you're looking at no less than 4 different projectiles for the dismount force logistics structure: Standard AR load, Standard LMG, AP, Tracer.
I think for the near term, what's most needed is a good Ball projectile, most likely non-fragmenting FMJ (assuming the V4 intend to continue strictly abiding by Hague Declaration III).
True. That's for another thread, perhaps.Notice we haven't even covered DM/Sniper, which is where this cartridge really shines as well, with the 123gr Scenar/SMK types.
Last edited by stanc; 09-01-2011 at 11:18 PM.
Unless there is a copper colored steel, these have a copper jacket, lead inside the base, and a steel tip. The bottom of the projectile is not magnetic, as I recall.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper
Steel jackets can be copper colored. There are gilding metal clad steel (GMCS) jackets, and copper washed steel jackets.
Let me get this straight. Does it have a short, steel tip (with long, lead base slug) similar to M855 Ball?...these have a copper jacket, lead inside the base, and a steel tip.
Or does it have a long, steel core with pointed tip (and a small lead plug at the base)?
If it won't stick to the jacket at the base, then it must not be a steel jacket.The bottom of the projectile is not magnetic, as I recall.
Using the expression KE Density = (1/2)MV²/(πR²) (where M=mass, V=velocity, and R=bullet radius) I find that the Grendel is about 100 ft/sec shy of matching the 7.62X51 M80 potential for perforating steel plates for lead-core FMJ bullets in the 100 - 120 grain class.
Replacing all or part of the lead with a hardened pin as is done with the M855A1 would change this to the extent that the Grendel with a 20-24 inch barrel might just be able to perforate the same thickness of steel as the M855A1.
Of course we would need to test. Before that, someone needs to design and fabricate steel-cored 6.5 bullets in the 100-120 gr weight range, develop safe loads and verify with load development testing. Then, at last, we could see if the Grendel might do as well.
Any takers on bullet fab?
In the meantime, I'm happy with knowing that the Grendel is close and maybe good enough!
Nevermore...
ShootersNotes.com
Or, we could do comparison tests with the lead-core Norma 120gr FMJ vs 7.62x54R (or 7.62x51) lead-core FMJ. That would let us see how well Grendel can do now, instead of waiting years for someone to design and fabricate steel-core bullets, then develop and verify safe loads.
Personally, I'd rather see proof, than depend upon a maybe.In the meantime, I'm happy with knowing that the Grendel is close and maybe good enough!
The the 7.62X51 NATO kind of clones the velocity for bullet weight of the 7.62X54R in bullets of the 140 - 175 grain class. (As an aside, the NATO round appeared about 60 years after the Russian round - talk about progress!)
Since we're already pretty sure the Grendel doesn't quite get the needed energy density to punch the same plate as the .308, we should be surprised if it does any better against the Russian round.
Why test when one is reasonably sure the outcome isn't what you want? The bullet designs suggested will likely 'prove' what we already know. That will do nothing to help...
One more time -- Inappropriate testing is likely to be harmful to keeping the momentum going.
Nevermore...
ShootersNotes.com
I would disagree with this if you can't fire the LMG rounds in the rifle and vice versa. If you have different rounds, the zero would be different and that would negate the whole point of ammo commonality.
I know I've stripped rounds from 7.62 belts for M-14 sniper rifles when we ran out of sniper ammo. I also know of guys who gathered up expended links and assembled belts for the machine guns when they only got rifle ammo resupply.
Things can get chaotic sometimes.
It may be a moot point as all of these countries are now in Nato and will likely refit with Nato standard ammo when they refit, except perhaps Special Ops forces.
Last edited by RangerRick; 09-02-2011 at 01:35 AM.
The 7.62x54 is more powerful than the 7.62x51 NATO. It is closer to the 30.06. So the comparison would favor the x54.
The idea is that you can have a light machine gun of acceptable power with much less weight and ammo commonality with your rifles. The comparison should be the RPD in 7.62x39 and the RPD in Grendel.
You could do the x54 comparison for reference, but no way will the Grendel match it, even at long range.
You can demonstrate the weight difference, though. The Grendel ammo will be much lighter than the x54. As a percentage even more than the x51.
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