Attempt to recreate Hornady 123 AMAX factory ammo!

[lrgrendel]

Had some fun today. 2 rifles used. A 24" AA Overwatch and a Bartlein 20".

All Lapua brass and AA 2520 powder. (Except Hornady ammo!) 123 AMAX. 5 shot groups. 100 yds. 65 deg F. SEA LEVEL.

24" Overwatch. CCI 450 29.4 g (my load)

GROUP 1. 2600, 2619, 2644, 2656, 2659 no ES OR SD
GROUP 2. 2671, 2602, 2588, 2612, 2604 no ES OR SD


24" Overwatch. CCI 450 29.1 g

GROUP 1. LOW 2569 HIGH 2593 AVE 2585 ES 24.2 SD 9.4
GROUP 2. LOW 2578 HIGH 2615 AVE 2589 ES 36.7 SD 15.2
GROUP 3. LOW 2586 HIGH 2605 AVE 2592 ES 18.9 SD 7.7


24" Overwatch. FED 205M 29.1 g

GROUP 1. LOW 2562 HIGH 2609 AVE 2585 ES 47.5 SD 17.7
GROUP 2. LOW 2548 HIGH 2607 AVE 2586 ES 58.7 SD 22.8


24" Overwatch. Hornady 123 AMAX factory ammo.

GROUP 1. LOW 2565 HIGH 2631 AVE 2596 ES 65.8 SD 23.9
GROUP 2. LOW 2585 HIGH 2622 AVE 2612 ES 36.4 SD 15.2


20" BARTLEIN. CCI 450 29.1

GROUP 1. AVE 2509 ES 26 SD 10


20" BARTLEIN. HORNADY 123 AMAX factory

GROUP 1. AVE 2513 ES 33 SD 12


The Hornady ammo had gold primers which may have been Tulammo. I was not impressed with the factory ammo. It was the first time either rifle had shot this ammo.
The 29.1 g with the CCI 450 primers had actually 2 pretty good groups out of the 24".

Sorry no photo of the 20" targets. The results were pretty average. Those black circles in the targets are 1" BTW.

One thing we did prove was about a difference of 80 FPS between the 24" and the 20".

I have saved the Hornady brass and is in the tumbler right now. I have access to some Tulammo primers and will try that combo with 29.1 g next time.

[Savage Shooter]

What Chronograph(s) are you using? Is the velocity data an output of your chronograph? I am curious as to why sometimes you report an ES with a tenth of fps, and other times without. Unless your chronograph measures velocity to the 1/10th of a foot per second, (which would be rare for most chronos), the velocity will always be a whole number and thus ES the same. The Standard Deviation, which is a calculated number (as is the average velocity), might have a fractional component, depending on the output data from your chronograph. You started out reporting individual velocities for each shot and ended up with just the summary CALCULATED data - is it just because you got tired of recording all the details, or were you using two different chronos with different outputs (in which case you can't compare the data between the chronographs with any real accuracy)?

FYI for your 29.4 gr loads out of the 24" Overwatch, with the individual velocities, your calculated results are:

GROUP 1. 2600, 2619, 2644, 2656, 2659 no ES OR SD AVG 2635.6 ES 59 SD 22.7
GROUP 2. 2671, 2602, 2588, 2612, 2604 no ES OR SD AVG 2615.4 ES 83 SD 28.9

Here is a handy on-line calculator for Average and Standard deviation if you ever need one. http://www.mathsisfun.com/data/stand...alculator.html

Lest readers think I am being too analytical about the data, I admit that as an engineer, I do get too wrapped up in the numbers sometimes. But my primary interest is because I have two different chronographs (Competition Electronics ProChronograph and a Magnetospeed V3) and I know they don't read the same for the exact same same shot, let alone give the same average velocity info for a given load on different days, or even within a given day depending on lighting conditions for the ProChronograph.

I suspect that the velocity data reported by various contributors probably has a range of plus or minus 40-50 fps between contributors WITH THE SAME LOAD, IN THE SAME barrel length gun, just because of reading differences/errors in chronographs and lighting conditions. Probably most reloaders are aware that even using the same load data and components, that differences in lots of the same powder and primer and even brass, can cause such differences. But, I don't recall a footnote regarding chronograph related "errors/differences" in the data charts in the Grendel Reloading Handbooks or elsewhere and thought that it would be a helpful reminder to those who are not able to "match" the results of any published loads with their individual loads, guns and chronographs.

[biodsl]

Thanks for the work on this. Your results aside, Hornady Amax seems to shoot well across a lot of barrels. Cracking this code would be a service to the Horde.

[lrgrendel]

No problem. I appreciate your detailed response.

I was using a Master Chrono on the 24" Overwatch. My buddy was using a Magetospeed on the 20" Bartlein.

I recorded each shot velocity with a pen but lost the ES and SD of the first 2 groups. I still have the data of every shot fired but did not show it as I thought it was unnecessary.

I did not show the exact number recorded by the Chrono, I rounded up!
I also recorded only the data exactly given to me by my "bud" ( you hear that Dave! )

Any way I thought it was a fun exercise and I will try to be more exact next time, with my results.

I will add though...
Legacysports who produce Howa rifles just emailed me and said "Late 2015 /2016 in our mini action howa" for delivery of their bolt action Grendel.

I WILL be buying one of these primarily as a light hunting "rig" for my son and I, using all those useless 140 g Lapua Naturalis bullets I own!!

I would also like to buy one with the intention of a re barrel project to a length in a bull barrel that will give me the most velocity for a given powder charge. Yes. I am always chasing velocity!! With the Grendel. I like the "round"!

And yes I am buying an AI AT IN 260 REM as a dedicated 1000 yd gun as soon as they are available without having to re barrel a 308.

[lrgrendel]

Thanks for the work on this. Your results aside, Hornady Amax seems to shoot well across a lot of barrels. Cracking this code would be a service to the Horde.

I am going to start a conspiracy theory!! There has been no availability of AA 2520 over the last 12 to 18 months.....
If it has been produced where has it been going??

I have 3 or 4 pounds with access to more, so I will continue with the experiment. The primer is the issue. It was gold in color in the factory ammo.
Next time I shoot I will use the Hornady cases, 29.1 g AA2520 and Tuloammo primers and see what happens.

[bwaites]

AA2520 was one of the powders affected by the explosion at PB Clermont in Belgium last March, (2014)so it has been rare to find. There are reports (and generally agreement) that it is the same as Ramshot Wild Boar, but I've never seen that sold in the States, though European sites list it.

[lrgrendel]

AA2520 was one of the powders affected by the explosion at PB Clermont in Belgium last March, (2014)so it has been rare to find. There are reports (and generally agreement) that it is the same as Ramshot Wild Boar, but I've never seen that sold in the States, though European sites list it.

Interesting. So has all AA 2520 produced over the year's been produced in Belgium?

[bwaites]

Interesting. So has all AA 2520 produced over the year's been produced in Belgium?

No, it used to be made in Eastern Europe, as I understand it, was transferred to Belgium when AA and Ramshot were merged.

That fits with What I've heard over the years that the old 2520 was very rough and irregular looking, but what we have now is very modern in appearance.

[rabiddawg]

. The primer is the issue. It was gold in color in the factory ammo..

I have hornady factory ammo with silver and gold primers. Purchased about a year apart.

[Savage Shooter]

No problem. I appreciate your detailed response.

I was using a Master Chrono on the 24" Overwatch. My buddy was using a Magetospeed on the 20" Bartlein.

If you have the time and can borrow your buddy's Magnetospeed, I'd be curious to know the difference you register between the two when using them both at the same time. I tested this for one series of an OCW workup, but have not analyzed the data in full. But a quick eyeball of the data showed about an average of 40 fps FASTER with the pro chrono, which is puzzling since I have it set at 12' from the muzzle and the Magnetospeed is of course right at the muzzle. I really need to dig my tests out for that day and complete the analysis. I do recall when I first got the Magnetospeed, I was doing some load development for my 6" Ruger Security Six .357 Magnum and the results were a VERY VERY consistent 5 fps faster on each shot with the Magnetospeed, which I naturally assumed was because it was 12 ' closer. I was surprised and disappointed to see the gap in speeds on my Grendel. I don't know if the flash suppressor was doing something funky to the Magnetospeed results or not.

[lrgrendel]

If you have the time and can borrow your buddy's Magnetospeed, I'd be curious to know the difference you register between the two when using them both at the same time. I tested this for one series of an OCW workup, but have not analyzed the data in full. But a quick eyeball of the data showed about an average of 40 fps FASTER with the pro chrono, which is puzzling since I have it set at 12' from the muzzle and the Magnetospeed is of course right at the muzzle. I really need to dig my tests out for that day and complete the analysis. I do recall when I first got the Magnetospeed, I was doing some load development for my 6" Ruger Security Six .357 Magnum and the results were a VERY VERY consistent 5 fps faster on each shot with the Magnetospeed, which I naturally assumed was because it was 12 ' closer. I was surprised and disappointed to see the gap in speeds on my Grendel. I don't know if the flash suppressor was doing something funky to the Magnetospeed results or not.

Just so I fully understand. You want me to use both chronographs with the same rifle?? If it is no problem.

[LRRPF52]

If the Chrony isn't extended out fully with the metal housing, it will register faster speeds. I use a 2x4 or flat piece of wood usually when setting it up for the prone.

If shooting on a tripod, I double-check that it is fully folded out and straight.

If you want a sanity check on your chrono, you can shoot with the Magnetospeed attached and shoot over the chrono at the same time.

[Savage Shooter]

If you want a sanity check on your chrono, you can shoot with the Magnetospeed attached and shoot over the chrono at the same time.

LRGRENDEL - yes, as LRRPF52 mentioned, put the Magnetospeed bayo on the rifle (any rifle and load at this point, because I'd like to know how one reads versus the other) and set up your "standard" chronograph as you normally would. Then shoot using both at the same time and record the readings. It would be interesting to know how one compares to the other with the exact same rifle measuring the same shot. You might also shoot with and without the Magnetospeed attached and record the POI difference. I get as much as a 3" shift in POI - and depending on the rifle and load, I think it could be shifted in any direction. The Magnetospeed DEFINITELY affects the point of impact, even if it doesn't affect the group size. Although lighting/weather conditions don't have any effect on the Magnetospeed readings, I don't feel quit confident to use it for my OCW load workup, and I sure can't use it for final load development AND rifle sight-in. Once I establish my optimum load, I can't use the Magnetospeed for final sight-in.

That's why I am excited to see the release of the Labradar ( http://www.mylabradar.com/ ) if it is reliable - no weather and lighting worries (old style chrono) and no shift in POI (Magnetospeed).

[Boostmeister]

The mylabradar unit sounds interesting, although I don't know what the price is. Of course it comes out 6 months AFTER I purchased an Oehler 35 P. Just my luck! What isn't clear to me about the mylabradar is at what distance the MV is measured. When I set up my Oehler 10 feet from the bench, I know exactly where the MV is measured, and my data is consistent from one measurement to another, and with different loads. Wonder if the mylabradar will be as consistent given that it is triggered by the muzzle blast? My guess is that it won't make much difference. The biggest advantage has to be that it will be much more difficult to shoot it.

[37L1]

labradar can measure several distance points, not just one. "Actual velocities at various distances from muzzle out to 100 yards."

$559 supposedly shipping in July.