Doctrine and why the Grendel has an uphill battle.

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  • JASmith
    Chieftain
    • Sep 2014
    • 1620

    #16
    Originally posted by Klem View Post
    Twistedfisters,

    I agree with 55'.

    When you first posted this I read some of your polemic and stopped. It just does not make sense - disorganised and rambling. I was tempted to respond at the time but thought you might be drunk or on drugs so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Tell you the truth I come here for the technical banter from some really professional and experienced shooters. I think you will get far more out of the site from sticking to that and leave the manifesto's for somewhere else.
    Well and politely said!!!
    shootersnotes.com

    "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
    -- Author Unknown

    "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

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    • BjornF16
      Chieftain
      • Jun 2011
      • 1825

      #17
      Sheesh!...banned too quickly. I just got jalapeno popcorn and settled in...
      LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
      Defend the Constitution and our 2A Rights!

      Comment

      • SHORT-N-SASSY
        Warrior
        • Apr 2013
        • 629

        #18
        Originally posted by BjornF16 View Post
        Sheesh!...banned too quickly. . . .
        I agree. And, as a supporter of "The facts, Ma'am. Just the facts.", I'm concerned that the OP's last Post was deleted, just before he was banned.

        Comment

        • Grendelshooter
          Warrior
          • Jun 2017
          • 214

          #19
          Hmmm...
          Former 11C here.
          The idea of the 'Rifleman' using precision fire in place of fire superiority had grunts with 3 round mag Krags getting torn up by Spanish grunts shooting Mausers.

          There are a lot of things I disliked about the 5.56, particularly barrier penetration or lack thereof.
          Otherwise it's alright for how we use it in fire and maneuver tactics.

          Realistically a grunt needs to carry as many rounds as possible, be able to engage to 500 meters, be able to lay a heavy volume of fire as accurately as possible. 5.56 does these things pretty well.

          Sure there are rounds that are more effective, but 5.56 does everything well enough.

          Comment

          • SHORT-N-SASSY
            Warrior
            • Apr 2013
            • 629

            #20
            Originally posted by Grendelshooter View Post
            . . . Realistically a grunt needs to carry as many rounds as possible, be able to engage to 500 meters, be able to lay a heavy volume of fire as accurately as possible. 5.56 does these things pretty well.

            Sure there are rounds that are more effective, but 5.56 does everything well enough.

            (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?to...22280#msg22280)

            Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer (http://www.defensetech.org/2010/03/0...alf-kilometer/) NOTE: Click-on "Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan: Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer" in first paragraph.

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            • LR1955
              Super Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 3355

              #21
              Originally posted by SHORT-N-SASSY View Post
              I agree. And, as a supporter of "The facts, Ma'am. Just the facts.", I'm concerned that the OP's last Post was deleted, just before he was banned.
              SNS:

              Unfortunately, a mod has to delete the post in order to ban someone on this forum. Or at least that is the only way I have found.

              If you have a problem with this decision or any decision made by a Moderator, you can contact John or Bill.

              Also, we have gone over the Half Kilometer article a couple of times. Also the kinetic energy of issued ammo and match grade 6.5 bullets and found the comparisons to be flawed because the military is not about to buy match grade bullets and issue them as ball ammo. I know that guys have thrown around the notion of two Grendel loads, one for a MG that would use a 140 grain bullet and one for the rifleman with a bullet weighing around 120 grains.

              Considering the rifleman and this theoretical 120 grain bullet, it will probably have a BC of about .300 at best and a MV of about 2450 at best from a issued carbine. Its accuracy potential with a service grade carbine would be at best, 3 minutes.

              What I would like to know is what exactly is stopping a rifleman from shooting at something that is 500 meters away?

              LR55
              Last edited by LR1955; 07-18-2017, 02:31 PM.

              Comment

              • LRRPF52
                Super Moderator
                • Sep 2014
                • 8569

                #22
                Currently, soldiers who score expert on the Qualification range typically are not able to even hit a man-size target out to 200m in combat because they don't get enough trigger time in practical scenarios.

                With training, they can become more effective with the current system, especially M855A1.

                My prediction is that commanders won't support any efforts to increase time on the range or a competent NCO corps who have even been trained on the basic facts about the systems, let alone how to employ them.

                It's pretty bad when you have Drill Sergeants who talk about the need to align the gas rings or the gun will blow up, or master gunners in the 82nd who have incorrect information about the AR15 family of weapons, and continue to spread false information as they are looked up to as an SME.
                NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                www.AR15buildbox.com

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  #23
                  Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                  The last war we fought and won was WWII?
                  Well, the Korean War ended in a stalemate; the Vietnam War we just got tired of fighting and went home; Panama and Grenada were brief operations, not wars; Desert Storm was a bigger, but also brief, operation in which most of the enemy air force ran away instead of fighting; and we're still conducting counterinsurgency and counterterrorist operations in Afghanistan.

                  14.5" 5.56 NATO carbines are too much gun for RTOs, Combat Medics, LTs in many cases, PSGs, Javelin Gunners, Forward Observers, Assistant Machine Gunners, Mortarmen, and Combat Engineers. They all would be better served with something shorter in most cases.
                  10.3" Mk18?

                  Comment

                  • stanc
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2011
                    • 3430

                    #24
                    Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                    Also, we have gone over the Half Kilometer article a couple of times. Also the kinetic energy of issued ammo and match grade 6.5 bullets and found the comparisons to be flawed because the military is not about to buy match grade bullets and issue them as ball ammo. I know that guys have thrown around the notion of two Grendel loads, one for a MG that would use a 140 grain bullet and one for the rifleman with a bullet weighing around 120 grains.

                    Considering the rifleman and this theoretical 120 grain bullet, it will probably have a BC of about .300 at best and a MV of about 2450 at best from a issued carbine.
                    The "two load" proposal would never fly. The Army tried that approach a couple of times in the past, and dropped it in favor of a single, general issue load for rifles and machine guns.

                    I have to note that you're too pessimistic about the BC of a 120gr 6.5mm ball projectile. The Norma 120gr FMJ is listed with a 0.428 BC, which is comparable to that of 147gr M80 Ball.

                    However, a hypothetical ball round for 6.5 Grendel would undoubtedly be of the lead-free EPR design, so we're looking at a bullet weight circa 105 grains, which would affect BC and MV.

                    Comment

                    • SHORT-N-SASSY
                      Warrior
                      • Apr 2013
                      • 629

                      #25

                      (http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/6-...ought-to-have/)

                      Comment

                      • LR1955
                        Super Moderator
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 3355

                        #26
                        SNS:

                        According to anyone's data, a 107 Match King and 108 Lapua Scenar will have a much improved BC and mass over any 5.56 round. Again, one is comparing a match grade bullet to existing military issued ball rounds.

                        A 105 grain service ball round will have a BC so close to a issued service round that no one would be able to tell the difference. Given a service grade carbine and service grade ball, look at 3 - 4 minutes. The same as currently issued 5.56 ball. I haven't looked at the Ke of each but I imagine the 107 grain bullet will have greater Ke but probably not so much greater that it would increase lethality. Unless the bullet was exceptionally well designed and the more parts to a bullet, the higher the probability that it will not be very stable and its mean radius will be pretty big.

                        How about comparing that Wolf steel cased stuff to the improved M-855? That Wolf stuff will be pretty close in terms of BC and velocity to what ever becomes a issued ball loading. At least in terms of internal and external ballistics. Terminal ballistics not until a true ball round of Grendel is produced somewhere.

                        LR55

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                        • SHORT-N-SASSY
                          Warrior
                          • Apr 2013
                          • 629

                          #27
                          The Last Big Lie of Vietnam Kills U.S. Soldiers in Iraq (http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...ietnam_ki.html) ---







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                          • BluntForceTrauma
                            Administrator
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 3897

                            #28
                            S&S, I'm not the world's greatest defender of 5.56, but combining variable shot placement and adrenaline can result in ANY cartridge producing anecdotes of unpredictable wounding effects.

                            I bet we could drum up quite a few anecdotes from WWII of .30-06 multiple hit failures to stop.

                            Terminal effects is just one part of the cartridge selection matrix.
                            :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                            :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                            Comment

                            • SHORT-N-SASSY
                              Warrior
                              • Apr 2013
                              • 629

                              #29
                              Originally posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
                              . . . Terminal effects is just one part of the cartridge selection matrix.
                              BFT,

                              Thanks for chiming in. On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you compare the .223/5.56x45mm against the 6.5mm Grendel, as we know it, in the cartridge selection matrix?
                              _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

                              ETA:

                              And, let's dial-in "Extended Range Capability": The Pentagon Is Reportedly Going to Send 4,000 More U.S. Troops to Afghanistan (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...ghanistan.html)
                              Last edited by SHORT-N-SASSY; 07-20-2017, 08:40 AM.

                              Comment

                              • stanc
                                Banned
                                • Apr 2011
                                • 3430

                                #30
                                Originally posted by SHORT-N-SASSY View Post
                                On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you compare the .223/5.56x45mm against the 6.5mm Grendel, as we know it, in the cartridge selection matrix?
                                In order to answer that question, it would first be necessary to know how the "cartridge selection matrix" is defined.

                                In regards to combat endurance, if 7.62 NATO is a 1, and 5.56 NATO is a 10, I would rank 6.5 Grendel at a 4.5.

                                Ammo loads of roughly equal weight: 5 x 7.62 mags = 100 rds; 7 x 5.56 mags = 210 rds; 6 x 6.5 mags = 150 rds.

                                Last edited by stanc; 07-20-2017, 08:17 PM.

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