Grendel LMG

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  • #16
    The Baltics and Finland are long overdue for a modern LMG and Assault Rifle/Carbine with modern accessory integration architecture. Estonia is using a bunch of Galils the Israelis dumped on them, along with MG3's in 7.62 NATO. Finland is using the out-of-production Rk95 in 7.62x39, some ancient 7.62x39 mag-fed LMG and PKM's. Latvia and Lithuania have had AKS-74 variants, but the Lithuanian SF really like paratrooper SAW's with modernized kits in A-stan. The region is way overdue for some weapon upgrades for certain, especially when you compare the turn of the century from the late 1800's into the 1900's, and look at the quantum shifts in small arms development generated by Maxim, Browning, and Garand...metallic cartridges had already become dominant in the later 1800's in pistols, and were taking over rifle chamberings. With us at the year 2011, which corresponds to the century-ago 1911, I wonder how we're doing compared to that era. The cased telescoping tech is the biggest thing I think, if it can be successful, especially for dismounts. That would be our era's quantum leap.

    This is why the modular weapon system approach is the best avenue to pursue, so operating system and feed can be upgraded as the technology advances. Either way, I think we'll actually see some developments happen in the next two decades, where the AK will be looked at like a Mauser or Mosin Nagant, but still be around of course. The AR will continue to influence designs as far as ergos and modularity are concerned, and accessory integration will be the trend most sought after by developed countries. Who knows if metallic cartridges will be in cutting-edge weapons...

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    • bwaites
      Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 4445

      #17
      Originally posted by stanc View Post
      Hmm. Perhaps you're thinking of the (139gr) lead-core Ball projectiles? IIRC, the steel-core AP bullet is only 113 grains.
      The 6.5 AP Projectiles I have came from 6.5x55 ammo, and they weighed considerably more than 113 grains before I machined them down. I couldn't get decent velocities with them, only about 2300 FPS, and they wouldn't penetrate 1/2" steel. I've machined them down to 108 grains by trimming the tails, so we'll see what happens.

      Comment

      • stanc
        Banned
        • Apr 2011
        • 3430

        #18
        Originally posted by bwaites View Post
        The 6.5 AP Projectiles I have came from 6.5x55 ammo, and they weighed considerably more than 113 grains before I machined them down.
        Interesting. Are you sure your bullets don't have tungsten cores?

        I was going by info on the Swedish military ammo website for weight of the steel-core AP, so I can't verify the accuracy of the 113gr figure.

        Comment


        • #19
          A steel penetrator design based off the 7N6 or 7N10 would facilitate the same velocities as a standard FMJ. Just look at the 5.45x39 velocities for those at 2900 fps out of a 16.3" barrel, with projectile weights at 56gr. M4 with M855 62gr out of 14.5" barrel is 2900+ (not the British down-loaded weak ammo for the L85, but full-power M855). A 120gr 6.5 running quick with the narrow steel rod would smoke some steel. A 130gr LMG load could also be considered, with the right powder. Personally, I wouldn't want crazy penetration in AR's unless dealing with body armor, in which case you would need extreme velocity and light projectiles with small penetrators. Those would have limited effectiveness at distances past 400-500, whereas a standard weight projectile would break through mud, brick, and earthen barriers better out of an LMG. I don't want that for my door-kickers...too much blue on blue.

          Either way, you're looking at no less than 4 different projectiles for the dismount force logistics structure: Standard AR load, Standard LMG, AP, Tracer. Notice we haven't even covered DM/Sniper, which is where this cartridge really shines as well, with the 123gr Scenar/SMK types.
          Last edited by Guest; 09-01-2011, 09:50 PM.

          Comment

          • stanc
            Banned
            • Apr 2011
            • 3430

            #20
            Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
            The Visegrad 4 have already been looking at new weapons systems.
            I know the Czechs are fielding the CZ805, but I couldn't find any indication that Poland or Hungary were planning to replace their AK variants.
            The Kreb's kits and Brugger & Thommet rails make an AK an even more ungainly beast of an Assault Rifle.
            No kidding. Hungarian AK63 MF

            I don't see a need for them to load the same projectile for assault rifles and LMG's anyway... There is zero reason to have a strictly belt-fed LMG use the same projectiles as a mag-fed AR.
            Granted, but isn't that what everybody does (except the Chinese)?

            Comment

            • bwaites
              Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 4445

              #21
              Originally posted by stanc View Post
              Interesting. Are you sure your bullets don't have tungsten cores?

              I was going by info on the Swedish military ammo website for weight of the steel-core AP, so I can't verify the accuracy of the 113gr figure.
              Well, I can check again, but I'm pretty sure they were magnetic.

              Going to be next week, though, I'm in the middle of a garage/loading room remodel.

              Comment

              • RangerRick

                #22
                A college room mate of mine is a retired Army bird Colonel. He was a Special Forces Officer and Polish speaker. He helped the Poles set up their Special Forces school as a special project right before he retired.

                If we get anywhere with this I can approach him about a contact point there.

                I have a belt on order from DS Arms. I'll post picks with Grendel brass and 7.62x39 brass in it side by side. I'll load up some Norma FMJs to 2.205 and see how much powder we can get in.

                Rick

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  #23
                  Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                  A steel penetrator design based off the 7N6 or 7N10 would facilitate the same velocities as a standard FMJ.
                  I haven't seen a sectional view of the 7N6 and 7N10, but in any case, what I was thinking of is the use of mild steel cores in 7.62x54R ammo, and the possibility that the V4 would also use the same construction in bullets for 6.5 Grendel, should they adopt it.
                  Just look at the 5.45x39 velocities for those at 2900 fps out of a 16.3" barrel, with projectile weights at 56gr. M4 with M855 62gr out of 14.5" barrel is 2900+. A 120gr 6.5 running quick with the narrow steel rod would smoke some steel.
                  Maybe, but you're not going to get anywhere near 2900 fps with a 6.5 120gr. According to Bill W, in a 19.5" barrel the 123gr SMK ammo from Black Hills did only 2550-2575 fps, and he considered that a hot load. If MV is kept down to 2500-2525 fps, it'll only be doing ~2400 fps from a 14.5" tube.
                  Either way, you're looking at no less than 4 different projectiles for the dismount force logistics structure: Standard AR load, Standard LMG, AP, Tracer.
                  IMO you're being optimistic about getting two different Ball loads adopted, but otherwise I agree.

                  I think for the near term, what's most needed is a good Ball projectile, most likely non-fragmenting FMJ (assuming the V4 intend to continue strictly abiding by Hague Declaration III).
                  Notice we haven't even covered DM/Sniper, which is where this cartridge really shines as well, with the 123gr Scenar/SMK types.
                  True. That's for another thread, perhaps.
                  Last edited by stanc; 09-01-2011, 11:18 PM.

                  Comment

                  • bwaites
                    Moderator
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 4445

                    #24
                    Originally posted by stanc
                    You may already be aware that some 6.5x55 FMJs had steel jackets, which would also be attracted to a magnet.
                    Unless there is a copper colored steel, these have a copper jacket, lead inside the base, and a steel tip. The bottom of the projectile is not magnetic, as I recall.

                    Comment

                    • stanc
                      Banned
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 3430

                      #25
                      Originally posted by bwaites View Post
                      Unless there is a copper colored steel...
                      Steel jackets can be copper colored. There are gilding metal clad steel (GMCS) jackets, and copper washed steel jackets.
                      ...these have a copper jacket, lead inside the base, and a steel tip.
                      Let me get this straight. Does it have a short, steel tip (with long, lead base slug) similar to M855 Ball?

                      Or does it have a long, steel core with pointed tip (and a small lead plug at the base)?
                      The bottom of the projectile is not magnetic, as I recall.
                      If it won't stick to the jacket at the base, then it must not be a steel jacket.

                      Comment


                      • #26

                        Comment

                        • stanc
                          Banned
                          • Apr 2011
                          • 3430

                          #27
                          Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                          Of course we would need to test. Before that, someone needs to design and fabricate steel-cored 6.5 bullets in the 100-120 gr weight range, develop safe loads and verify with load development testing. Then, at last, we could see if the Grendel might do as well.
                          Or, we could do comparison tests with the lead-core Norma 120gr FMJ vs 7.62x54R (or 7.62x51) lead-core FMJ. That would let us see how well Grendel can do now, instead of waiting years for someone to design and fabricate steel-core bullets, then develop and verify safe loads.
                          In the meantime, I'm happy with knowing that the Grendel is close and maybe good enough!
                          Personally, I'd rather see proof, than depend upon a maybe.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The the 7.62X51 NATO kind of clones the velocity for bullet weight of the 7.62X54R in bullets of the 140 - 175 grain class. (As an aside, the NATO round appeared about 60 years after the Russian round - talk about progress!)

                            Since we're already pretty sure the Grendel doesn't quite get the needed energy density to punch the same plate as the .308, we should be surprised if it does any better against the Russian round.

                            Why test when one is reasonably sure the outcome isn't what you want? The bullet designs suggested will likely 'prove' what we already know. That will do nothing to help...

                            One more time -- Inappropriate testing is likely to be harmful to keeping the momentum going.

                            Comment

                            • RangerRick

                              #29
                              Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                              I don't see a need for them to load the same projectile for assault rifles and LMG's anyway, since they have had different end-user logistics packages for PKM's, MG3's, Vz's, SVD's, AK74's, MPi-AKS-74N's, Tantals, and so forth. A steel rod penetrator like the 7N6 or 7N10 would be great, with plenty of lead weight, and a thin projectile jacket. There is zero reason to have a strictly belt-fed LMG use the same projectiles as a mag-fed AR.
                              I would disagree with this if you can't fire the LMG rounds in the rifle and vice versa. If you have different rounds, the zero would be different and that would negate the whole point of ammo commonality.

                              I know I've stripped rounds from 7.62 belts for M-14 sniper rifles when we ran out of sniper ammo. I also know of guys who gathered up expended links and assembled belts for the machine guns when they only got rifle ammo resupply.

                              Things can get chaotic sometimes.

                              It may be a moot point as all of these countries are now in Nato and will likely refit with Nato standard ammo when they refit, except perhaps Special Ops forces.
                              Last edited by Guest; 09-02-2011, 01:35 AM.

                              Comment

                              • RangerRick

                                #30
                                Originally posted by stanc View Post
                                Or, we could do comparison tests with the lead-core Norma 120gr FMJ vs 7.62x54R (or 7.62x51) lead-core FMJ. That would let us see how well Grendel can do now, instead of waiting years for someone to design and fabricate steel-core bullets, then develop and verify safe loads.

                                Personally, I'd rather see proof, than depend upon a maybe.
                                The 7.62x54 is more powerful than the 7.62x51 NATO. It is closer to the 30.06. So the comparison would favor the x54.

                                The idea is that you can have a light machine gun of acceptable power with much less weight and ammo commonality with your rifles. The comparison should be the RPD in 7.62x39 and the RPD in Grendel.

                                You could do the x54 comparison for reference, but no way will the Grendel match it, even at long range.

                                You can demonstrate the weight difference, though. The Grendel ammo will be much lighter than the x54. As a percentage even more than the x51.

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