The Threat is Real, very real.

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  • Klem
    Chieftain
    • Aug 2013
    • 3507

    Originally posted by HowaGrendel View Post
    You have an active shooter and you do nothing but allow him to kill.
    ....I will guess none of you ever served in Iraq or Afghanistan ? Iron sights are NOT useless at night.....To do nothing is the same as helping....I never said shooter did not have an advantage.....he obviously did....many of you like to twist what others post to suit your opinion.....The failure of LE in this situation is obvious in today's world.....and LE should at all times in todays world be ready for an active shooter for all such large events.....the past shootings should have dictated better security.....saying basically nothing could have been done is far from the truth....
    You might be right... You might be the only one with operational service on this forum...

    Like I said, set up a torso at 350metres and shoot at it with iron sights at night. Let us know how you went. You can't go shooting up a Las Vegas hotel like the military might do if someone engages them from a high rise building in some overseas war zone.

    I am going to bow out of this thread now but I will say I think you are being very ungracious to the LVPD. My impression is that they were very brave and did the best they could, under fire.
    Last edited by Klem; 10-11-2017, 09:55 AM.

    Comment

    • howl
      Warrior
      • Nov 2015
      • 236

      Twenty minutes sounds about accurate for police response time. What was he planning? He probably thought he had an escape plan. I really hope his escape plan didn't involve other people cooperating and those people were not government.

      The particulars may not matter so much. A society of people who hate each other will have these problems regardless of legislation and enforcement.

      Comment

      • Keef
        Warrior
        • Jun 2017
        • 296

        I know I'm taking this to an extreme, but, would things have been better if EVERY person in the crowd had an AR15 and everyone started firing back?
        Last edited by Keef; 10-10-2017, 04:24 PM. Reason: Attempting to fix grammer.

        Comment

        • gmaxx
          Bloodstained
          • Feb 2017
          • 33

          Bad things are going to happen. People will die. No law or police force or security protocol in the world is going to change that. They can lessen the severity and reduce the frequency sure, but never truly eliminate the problem. People will always try to kill other people. Humans have been doing that since time began.
          As a responsible person what you can do is own and carry the weapon that is most appropriate for your situation and skill level. You can train with your chosen weapon, be physically fit, train in other skills such as trauma medicine, high speed driving etc.. as practical for you personal situation. This will allow you to be able to respond effectively if or when you are in a life and death situation that requires one of these skill sets, mindset is very important too. People never rise to an occasion, they fall to their level of training.
          As for trying to second guess the police and security personnel's response to the situation, that's an age old issue as well. Of course, knowing all the facts, how things turned out, and with all the time in the world on a comfortable couch with no distractions, we could come up with things they could have done better or differently. But to not have been there on the ground and try to second guess the guys that were is unjust. What I know of the police response seems to indicate a pretty disciplined force. From the perspective of an officer on the ground at the concert, I would view my responsibility as the immediate area around me, whether I had a long gun or not. They would not have known if there were other things planned at ground level such as additional shooters in the crowd, or suicide bombers, or IEDs by the exits or any number of other threats. It would have also been a job just to keep the crowd from trampling people to death. Handling the situation at hand, and leaving the response at the hotel the SWAT team or other officers in a better position to respond seems like a pretty good choice to me, especially in the time given. In a crowd of 22k, with only a small percentage of people being hit, it would not be far fetched to think the shooter in the hotel might not be the most dangerous threat, if you thought something else might be in store. You can't have your entire force focused on one threat and all trying to respond to the same thing. In a gunfight, just because your team takes fire from the north, doesn't mean you abandon your sector of fire to the south and swing your .50 to the north. You maintain your sector and let the guys facing north deal with it, so that you don't get a nasty surprise.

          Comment

          • JASmith
            Chieftain
            • Sep 2014
            • 1620

            Originally posted by HowaGrendel View Post
            Iron sights useless at night ? lol........hardly, and it is not like you could not move to a better vantage point to see.....In almost any shooting the LEO's have to move to get an advantage to be able to stop a shooter.....
            I have used iron sights at night on many occasions. The ONLY time that were useful was when the target was well lit.

            Also, if the police were able to SEE where the shots were coming from, they should have known that THIRTY TWO floors is more than 100 yards up. Add to that the needed horizontal separation doubling the minimum range where one could see into the room and the result is that he was firing from well outside the range where a beat cop could do anything other than suppressing fire. That would have ut civilians and law enforcement in serious danger.

            The only way law enforcement could get a better firing position was the one they chose -- enter the building and "knock" on the door.

            The amazing thing is they did this within 15 or 21 minutes from the first shots being taken. I know that seemed like forever to some but was truly a lightning fast response.

            The Las Vegas Police department needs to be congratulated for having the training and policy that allowed their officers to respond so quickly and effectively.
            shootersnotes.com

            "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
            -- Author Unknown

            "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

            Comment

            • SHORT-N-SASSY
              Warrior
              • Apr 2013
              • 629


              (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/11...-shooting.html)

              Comment

              • HowaGrendel
                Bloodstained
                • Sep 2017
                • 99

                A long muzzle flash from someone emptying a 50 to 100 round magazine is a well lit target.......at least it was when I was trained to shoot at night.....any window lickers in rooms around the shooter would have moved quick if a round hit close, if they did not know enough to seek cover away from the windows to begin with, you can't fix stupid.....

                Comment

                • VASCAR2
                  Chieftain
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 6219

                  Last edited by VASCAR2; 10-11-2017, 01:38 PM.

                  Comment

                  • 85_Ranger4x4
                    Warrior
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 264

                    Bump stocks are one thing, I really don't much care one way or the other about them. I will never have one and have no interest in them.

                    BUT banning them won't really fix much, you don't need a bumpstock to bump fire an AR. Next guy does that and the next progression is to either ban the rifle or make it no longer semi auto.

                    Now they are floating around a bill that would make it illegal to alter the rate off fire... with very vague wording. And that is what scares me.

                    Comment

                    • bj139
                      Chieftain
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 1968

                      Originally posted by 85_Ranger4x4 View Post
                      Bump stocks are one thing, I really don't much care one way or the other about them. I will never have one and have no interest in them.

                      BUT banning them won't really fix much, you don't need a bumpstock to bump fire an AR. Next guy does that and the next progression is to either ban the rifle or make it no longer semi auto.

                      Now they are floating around a bill that would make it illegal to alter the rate off fire... with very vague wording. And that is what scares me.
                      You have stated the objective of the gun banners.

                      They are interested in progressively banning all things gun related till there is nothing left to ban.

                      Comment

                      • BjornF16
                        Chieftain
                        • Jun 2011
                        • 1825

                        NRA has come out against DiFi's bump stock ban...

                        The NRA announced its opposition to a new bill that would ban any firearm part that effectively increases the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle.
                        LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
                        Defend the Constitution and our 2A Rights!

                        Comment

                        • StoneHendge
                          Chieftain
                          • May 2016
                          • 2009

                          Originally posted by BjornF16 View Post
                          NRA has come out against DiFi's bump stock ban...

                          http://freebeacon.com/issues/nra-opp...tock-ban-bill/
                          That bill is a joke. All AR-15 parts are "aftermarket" parts. They could ban low mass bolt carriers with that language. And just imagine how the 9th circuit would interpret it.....
                          Let's go Brandon!

                          Comment

                          • AZHTfreak
                            Warrior
                            • Jan 2017
                            • 316

                            Given Harvey's (& by extension, the rest of Hollyweird's) history of deviant perversions, I've written my esteemed rino senators McCain & Flake to author & introduce a bill for Common Sense Penis Control. Seems the perfect counterpoint to all the establishment DC blather about Common Sense Gun Control... Especially coming from these two.
                            DOJ+FBI+IRS+AFT=NKVD. Joe Stalin and Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria are tap dancing in hell right now...

                            Comment

                            • The Profit Joseph Sith
                              Warrior
                              • Nov 2016
                              • 596

                              Quote Originally Posted by HowaGrendel View Post
                              You have an active shooter and you do nothing but allow him to kill.
                              ....I will guess none of you ever served in Iraq or Afghanistan ? Iron sights are NOT useless at night.....To do nothing is the same as helping....I never said shooter did not have an advantage.....he obviously did....many of you like to twist what others post to suit your opinion.....The failure of LE in this situation is obvious in today's world.....and LE should at all times in todays world be ready for an active shooter for all such large events.....the past shootings should have dictated better security.....saying basically nothing could have been done is far from the truth....
                              You might be right... You might be the only one with operational service on this forum...

                              Klem:
                              Like I said, set up a torso at 350metres and shoot at it with iron sights at night. Let us know how you went. You can't go shooting up a Las Vegas hotel like the military might do if someone engages them from a high rise building in some overseas war zone.

                              I am going to bow out of this thread now but I will say I think you are being very ungracious to the LVPD. My impression is that they were very brave and did the best they could, under fire.

                              Me: I partially agree with both of you. Every shooter has a different skill level. I would hope that the shooter would pretty much know what their limitations are and act responsibly and do their best. Many people with the best intentions often do more harm than good.
                              I DO think there should be more ARMED LE at shows from now on. I would feel a helluva lot more safe if I knew there were a couple seat teams in overwatch putting thier skills to good use. And we should employ more if our highly trained service members into those roles. We have the technology.. I think it's time to adapt to the new threats and change tactics a bit. Maybe gunshot homing drones? With FLIR or thermal imaging.
                              I'm no huge fan of taxes but I think that would be tax money well spent.

                              I'm a firm believer they (the crims) should be alot more scared if us than us of them.

                              Comment

                              • The Profit Joseph Sith
                                Warrior
                                • Nov 2016
                                • 596

                                Originally posted by AZHTfreak View Post
                                Given Harvey's (& by extension, the rest of Hollyweird's) history of deviant perversions, I've written my esteemed rino senators McCain & Flake to author & introduce a bill for Common Sense Penis Control. Seems the perfect counterpoint to all the establishment DC blather about Common Sense Gun Control... Especially coming from these two.
                                Wasn't he one of the people attending the tail hook convention when someone like the secretary of defenses secretary was dragged in a hotel room and raped? My memory is hazy maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

                                Comment

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