Law Enforcement Applications

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Law Enforcement Applications

    All these other threads are military related, I haven't seen a single law enforcement thread. Therefore, I would like to start one. I'm hoping you guys are willing to discuss this. To start off, I think the long range ability of this cartridge, combined with light weight and recoil, could mostly replace .308 rifles currently in police/SWAT armories.
  • txgunner00
    Chieftain
    • Mar 2011
    • 2070

    #2
    I agree. Improved terminal ballistics over 5.56, interchangeable parts with their carbines, lighter recoil, etc. The vast majority of law enforcement sharpshooting scenarios are under 100 yds. .308 is not necessary IMO.
    NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

    George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

    Comment


    • #3
      My thought exactly, except for the extremely rare occasion where some kind of IMMENSELY THICK barrier must be penetrated, .308 should be scrapped.

      Comment

      • stanc
        Banned
        • Apr 2011
        • 3430

        #4
        Originally posted by Steyr94 View Post
        All these other threads are military related, I haven't seen a single law enforcement thread. Therefore, I would like to start one. I'm hoping you guys are willing to discuss this.
        I'm not sure how much of a discussion is possible, but here are my thoughts. Yes, 6.5 Grendel would seem well suited to LE use.

        Nearly all engagement distances for LE are very short range. With expanding bullets, lethality/incapacitation ought to be more than adequate.

        The lesser recoil (compared to .308 Win) would enhance the ability of police marksmen to make precision shots, vital in hostage situations.

        In contrast to military use, ammo load is not an issue, so 5.56 carbines and SBRs could also be Grendelized, thereby allowing one caliber to replace two (5.56 and 7.62).

        Next question?

        Comment

        • stanc
          Banned
          • Apr 2011
          • 3430

          #5
          Originally posted by Steyr94 View Post
          My thought exactly, except for the extremely rare occasion where some kind of IMMENSELY THICK barrier must be penetrated, .308 should be scrapped.
          Has such a barrier ever been encountered in LE operations?

          Is there any reason to think that such a barrier could not be defeated by 6.5 Grendel?

          Comment

          • txgunner00
            Chieftain
            • Mar 2011
            • 2070

            #6
            Originally posted by stanc View Post
            Has such a barrier ever been encountered in LE operations?

            Is there any reason to think that such a barrier could not be defeated by 6.5 Grendel?
            Stopping vehicles is the only really think I can think of a 6.5 G be just as effective. A 308 is not going to penetrate an engine block anyway.
            NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

            "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

            George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

            Comment


            • #7
              Glass penetration is something looked at and relied on with the .308, although a hostage scenario in a bank proved fatal for many hostages after an LE shooter tried to hit the perpetrator through the window. It would be important to do side-by-side tests with Grendel loads and .308 to see if there are any short-range advantages with the Grendel and certain bullet weights, versus the .308. I think most agencies have addressed this with bullet construction, at least for the ones who have addressed it at all.

              Comment

              • stanc
                Banned
                • Apr 2011
                • 3430

                #8
                Yes, bullet construction is critical to performance on barriers.

                Comment

                • Variable
                  Chieftain
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 2403

                  #9
                  One of the original feathers in the Grendel cartridge's cap was it's performance on glass rated to stop 7.62 while at a Blackwater event-- IIRC. Bill A. Punched a 144 Lapua right on through, and the gun world noticed.LOL While the heaviest bullets aren't the Grendels cup of tea for long range, BC is king for penetration in some scenarios, and the Grendel can definitely bring that to the table....
                  Life member NRA, SAF, GOA, WVSRPA (and VFW). Also member WVCDL. Join NOW!!!!!
                  We either hang together on this, or we'll certainly HANG separately.....

                  Comment

                  • Variable
                    Chieftain
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 2403

                    #10
                    Originally posted by stanc View Post
                    I'm not sure how much of a discussion is possible, but here are my thoughts. Yes, 6.5 Grendel would seem well suited to LE use.

                    Nearly all engagement distances for LE are very short range. With expanding bullets, lethality/incapacitation ought to be more than adequate.

                    The lesser recoil (compared to .308 Win) would enhance the ability of police marksmen to make precision shots, vital in hostage situations.

                    In contrast to military use, ammo load is not an issue, so 5.56 carbines and SBRs could also be Grendelized, thereby allowing one caliber to replace two (5.56 and 7.62).

                    Next question?
                    Well said Stan. I couldn't add anything other than that I wish my agency would figure all of that out and switch me over from 5.56... While I agree with LRRPF52 that 5.56 is generally quite adequate for military small arms use, I personally would still opt for the Grendel any day for LE. Ammo load is much less of a factor for LE, so I'd opt to bring more smackdown to the table given the opportunity. Of course, the thought of free Grendel ammo at work might have something to do with it too...LOL
                    Life member NRA, SAF, GOA, WVSRPA (and VFW). Also member WVCDL. Join NOW!!!!!
                    We either hang together on this, or we'll certainly HANG separately.....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For general patrol use, that 95gr VMAX would be brutal at over 2800 fps. If State and Local LE Agencies would tell the ATF to pound sand and adopt SBR's, they could have a more viable platform for maneuvering out of the vehcile compartment, and those trained as DMR's could deploy heavier barreled SPR-type surgical sticks for scenarios calling for that tool.

                      It would be nice to see receivers based on a beefier design, using the Magul 6.8 magazine if feasible, or a purpose-built Grendel PMAG that goes in a Grendel-specific lower, with a longer COAL. With a Grendel specific bolt & barrel extension built from the ground up, we could utilize the high-pressure capabilities of the Grendel case without worrying about the .222 Remington AR15 bolt that has been clung to since 1957, even after Armalite increased the pressures with the .223 Remington.

                      Comment

                      • BluntForceTrauma
                        Administrator
                        • Feb 2011
                        • 3897

                        #12
                        I seem to remember reading that most LE sniping situations are at range of 75 yards or less. Pretty sure a head-shot with any caliber will resolve the situation.

                        It's the penetration requirements make things interesting, and the 65G's versatility brings capability. Was once told by Bill A. that different materials require different projectile characteristics. Armored glass, for example, is best penetrated by heavy and slow projectiles, such as the 144gr FMJBT wherein the glass has time to "move out of the way."

                        Whether one's favorite theory is light and fast or heavy and slow, there's a 65G load or that. ;-)

                        John
                        :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                        :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                          For general patrol use, that 95gr VMAX would be brutal at over 2800 fps. If State and Local LE Agencies would tell the ATF to pound sand and adopt SBR's, they could have a more viable platform for maneuvering out of the vehcile compartment, and those trained as DMR's could deploy heavier barreled SPR-type surgical sticks for scenarios calling for that tool.
                          I'm confused. Are you saying you can get 2800 FPS from a 10"-ish barrel with 95gr VMAX? Seems like you'd get a lot of collateral damage, as the concussive blast would kill anybody near the shooter

                          Honestly though, I've never really considered the Grendel in a SBR configuration. Would you get complete gas expansion to drive that kind of FPS?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by OldCannon View Post
                            I'm confused. Are you saying you can get 2800 FPS from a 10"-ish barrel with 95gr VMAX? Seems like you'd get a lot of collateral damage, as the concussive blast would kill anybody near the shooter

                            Honestly though, I've never really considered the Grendel in a SBR configuration. Would you get complete gas expansion to drive that kind of FPS?
                            You can get 2700fps with the 100gr NBT out of a 16" barrel, and the 100 NBT has a lot of bearing surface-way more than the 95gr VMAX. David Fortier has been getting much higher velocities than expected with his 12" Grendel, even with 123gr AMAX.

                            With a beefier bolt, you could easily push the 85gr-95gr pills very fast out of Grendel SBR's. I don't think a 10" barrel is the best length, but I do like 11.5" and 12.5" AR15 SBR's.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                              You can get 2700fps with the 100gr NBT out of a 16" barrel, and the 100 NBT has a lot of bearing surface-way more than the 95gr VMAX. David Fortier has been getting much higher velocities than expected with his 12" Grendel, even with 123gr AMAX.

                              With a beefier bolt, you could easily push the 85gr-95gr pills very fast out of Grendel SBR's. I don't think a 10" barrel is the best length, but I do like 11.5" and 12.5" AR15 SBR's.
                              That's impressive. I didn't think 10 could do it, that's why I said 10-inch-ish -- a 12.5" barrel with a brake (better still: suppressor) would do nicely though.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X