Midway Satern 6.5 Grendel barrels

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cbubac View Post
    I couldn't agree more, when I was researching my newest build I chose the 6.5 Grendel due to its ballistics in a ar15 platform. I was looking at the 264 but chose the Grendel due to popularity, and available factory loads. I came very close to doing a 700 action in a 308 like everyone else but I already have all the ar tools. Plus I'd have t pay to have the action trued and lapped. Though I still don't regret my decision, but it is a problem calling a 264 a grendel when midway said its the same. I guess I'll just have to order a hornady lock n load progressive press with the bullet rebate and load my own brass.
    The chamber differences between the .264 and the G are relatively minor. The headspacing issue isn't. What is EXACTLY the same are the loaded ammo dimensions (factory loads included). So, if you want to roll your own, cool. But it isn't a requirement. Oh, and the cartridge shoulder angles are the same (they use the same dies) as are the shoulder angles in the chambers. The neck on the G is several thousandths (more or less) larger and the throat treatments are different. All in all, they are more similar than 5.56 and .223.
    Last edited by Guest; 02-14-2012, 04:36 AM.

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    • Drifter
      Chieftain
      • Mar 2011
      • 1662

      #32
      Originally posted by vfrdrvr View Post
      Oh, and the cartridge shoulder angles are the same (they use the same dies) as are the shoulder angles in the chambers.
      Based on examination of fired brass from Grendel and LBC chambers, I don't think the shoulder angles of the chambers are the same.
      Last edited by Drifter; 02-14-2012, 04:46 AM.
      Drifter

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Drifter View Post
        Based on examination of fired brass from Grendel and LBC chambers, I don't think the shoulder angles of the chambers are the same.
        The loaded cartridges are/should be identical. The only difference in fired brass I've seen is the necks from those fired in Grendel chambers run about .298 - .299 and brass from my LBC about .294. If there's a difference in the shoulder I don't see it. I haven't seen a reamer/chamber print for a G. I have one from PTG for the LBC. Shoulder angle is 30, which is what I recall seeing for the Grendel. Neck diameter is .295. Perhaps Bill A will post a print for the G.

        I guess it's possible what you're seeing is the neck on Grendel fired brass being blown out farther than the LBC. If so, you have micrometer calibrated eyes.

        The real issue, for me at least, is the bolt depth/headspacing difference. The other stuff is pretty inconsequential.
        Last edited by Guest; 02-14-2012, 05:10 AM.

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        • leopard6.5

          #34
          vfrdrvr: Here's what Bill A. posted in another thread:
          There have been a number of variations on chamber supposed to "improve" the Grendel. Most notable is the LBC which is particularly amusing as it was a design tested in prototyping and then dumped, that the reamer maker just regurgitated. The typical improvement may prove fruitful for the individual but it may also create frustration. Loading data may or may not be applicable. The Grendel chamber proper was set up to allow it to be easy to achieve good accuracy in bulk production with only a little attention to the details. It is tolerant to both long ogive target bullets, short flat base varmint loads and long but blunter hunting loadings. The typical set up with a half decent barrel will usually outshoot its owner.

          As to case life this seems to be another internet rumor. Unless the shooter uses an appropriate bushing type die set, 0.005" on diameter or 0.003" will have no effect at all. The sizing die will move the brass way beyond this both below and then back up as the sizing button passes. What the "tight" neck does without adequate insight is to relocate the origin for the shoulder/neck radius to a possible bind condition as the various manufacturers produce differing batches.
          The neck diameter has a negliable effect on brass life in this instance. I doubt you will be able to quantify it. Conversely the lack of singularity for the 0.295" neck has proven problematic.
          The 0.295"/0.300" neck shift itself is negliable for either function or brass life, but it does shift the transition radius for the neck to shoulder junction inwards. This stacks against the matching radius on the brass and depending upon how the shift is made on the reamer print the two can collide. This is magnified if for example you have no clue about the brass dimensions and tolerances so the transition radius cannot be matched up correctly. A more insidious problem with the 0.295" neck rests not with diameter but neck length. In the rush to prove superiority individuals shortened the neck length as well as adjusting diameter with different brass falling to differing tolerances it was not unusual to see rounds headspaced on the case mouth. My general opinion of the 0.295" neck is that it is an uneccesary adjustment that has proven to be uncontrolled in many other aspects.

          Anyone who is determined to shoot lacquered steel case in a tighter neck chamber is welcome to do so. It will generally fit but may or may not have the clearance to release the bullet. Let me know how this works out for you and remember when your rifle errupts in a clouds of broken parts you have no recourse except getting laughed at. I would advise that the steel case is tested and designed for the Grendel chamber and my initial observation is that the 0.300" throat is well suited to this form of construction.
          As stated by Bill A. there is a difference and I don't understand why people keep trying to defend other chambers by saying they are the same.
          They are not the same.

          Whether the differences are consequential or not has never been the question but when a buyer, especially a new to the Grendel buyer wants a Grendel, calling other things a Grendel isn't ethical.
          Some of these buyers may be very inexperienced shooter who end up having problems, like when the Hornady ammo came out, and don't know why.
          They can get frustrated or worse injured and end up blaming the Grendel and Bill A. when the blame rests elsewhere.
          I think it's especially hurtful and dishonest when a buyer( see Cbubac's posts above) thinks they are getting the SAAMI spec. chamber and they end up with something else.

          They should just be truthful and say they are trying to benefit from someone elses work and be honest with their customers.

          I'm glad that all this stuff other than the headspacing( and this is a pretty consequential issue especially for buyers that don't reload) is inconsequential to you but you aren't the only buyer and it is important to others and they have the right to get honest information.
          The headspacing issue has been causing problems for people who post here and on the older forum for years and it never should have been an issue for anyone if the Grendel chamber had been used or if the variations had been fully explained so people would know what they are getting instead of being told it is the same( as in identical which it isn't).


          All this being said, Good luck with your shooting and it's good to have you here.

          Lee
          Last edited by Guest; 02-14-2012, 12:26 PM.

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          • #35
            I wonder how many years it will take to work these kinks out, and if most of these other shops will just start making Grendel chambers with Grendel bolts to the standard SAAMI spec, or continue to deviate.

            The fact that several barrel shops are using some other chamber has been stopping me from ordering from them. I don't want a bolt that has the wrong depth for the Grendel extractor rim dimensions, and I don't want a .295" or .297" or .292" neck. I just want the SAAMI chamber that I can expect industry support from, with known loads. I learned recently how important start pressure is with solids, and if you change the neck tightness, and throat angle from a known chamber, that is going to have effects on start pressure bigtime.

            Since we're mostly dealing with AR's, you can't just have your barrel short-chambered by someone with a true Grendel reamer to correct the problem, because your gas port is already drilled. People need to get on the SAAMI chamber already.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by leopard6.5 View Post
              vfrdrvr: Here's what Bill A. posted in another thread:

              As stated by Bill A. there is a difference and I don't understand why people keep trying to defend other chambers by saying they are the same.
              They are not the same.
              Thanks Lee. I've seen most to all of this before, but it's good to refresh. To be honest, I've been wanting to enter the Grendel since the early days of the old web site. The reason I didn't was the amount of drama surrounding the availability/proprietary nature of the design in years past.

              I never said they're the same. Obviously, they're not. What I said was, the differences as I understand them (having never seen a reamer print for the Grendel) are .004 to .005 in the neck, and a 1.5 degree as opposed to compound throat. A previous poster was concerned he'd have to start reloading because he had an lbc chamber and, I guess, thought he couldn't shoot Grendel dimensioned ammo. That's just not true. The dies are the same. The ammo dimensions are the same. To be sure, if ammo makers get sloppy or you use cheap laquered steel case stuff you may have problems, but that's true of some 5.56/.223 chambers as well.


              Whether the differences are consequential or not has never been the question but when a buyer, especially a new to the Grendel buyer wants a Grendel, calling other things a Grendel isn't ethical.
              No argument here. I can't for the life of me understand why Midway called them Grendels. However, I don't think it's a bait and switch.

              Some of these buyers may be very inexperienced shooter who end up having problems, like when the Hornady ammo came out, and don't know why.

              They can get frustrated or worse injured and end up blaming the Grendel and Bill A. when the blame rests elsewhere.
              I think it's especially hurtful and dishonest when a buyer( see Cbubac's posts above) thinks they are getting the SAAMI spec. chamber and they end up with something else.
              Until a few weeks ago there was no SAMMI spec chamber. I don't know what the source of the disagreements between AA and Satern, Baer and others were. Frankly, I'm not persuaded by the "purity of the design" argument. I've been around shooting for a while and I don't recall that much drama in a long time. I wish things had gone differently, my first 6.5 AR would have been a 'true' Grendel. They didn't and it wasn't.

              They should just be truthful and say they are trying to benefit from someone elses work and be honest with their customers.
              I can't help but think this is the major part of the problem. AA wanted to capitalize on their work. They are certainly entitled to do so. What ensued, though, turned a lot of folks off - myself among them.

              I'm glad that all this stuff other than the headspacing( and this is a pretty consequential issue especially for buyers that don't reload) is inconsequential to you but you aren't the only buyer and it is important to others and they have the right to get honest information.
              Why is headspacing an issue especially for those who don't reload? If I have it right if HS is tight a spec round won't chamber and if it's too loose you're asking for a head separation. The first is a pain, the latter is, well, really bad.

              The headspacing issue has been causing problems for people who post here and on the older forum for years and it never should have been an issue for anyone if the Grendel chamber had been used or if the variations had been fully explained so people would know what they are getting instead of being told it is the same( as in identical which it isn't).
              Again, no argument here. The lbc, the 6.5 sporter, and the new ARP offering are not, in the absolute sense, Grendels. By the same token, they seem to be closer kin than the 5.56 nato and .223, and that's pretty close. The difference in the 5.56 and .223 has proven manageable. I suspect this will, too.

              I knew going in I was getting a variation on the design and it was a variation I wanted. The bolt/headspacing stuff was a bit of a curveball, but one that's managable. I'm still working up loads for mine, but it'll put 5 rounds of 123 A-max into about .5" at 100 and do almost that well with 108 Scenars (I think it will do better with the Scenars if I spring for a better seating die - my hdy die doesn't want to seat them to consistent lengths). So all-in-all, I'm a happy camper.

              All this being said, Good luck with your shooting and it's good to have you here.

              Lee
              And, again, thanks,

              Jim

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              • leopard6.5

                #37
                Hey Jim: It sounds like we're pretty much on the same page and to be honest it's not shooters like you I'm worried about, It's the new shooters that may not be experienced enough to make an informed choice.

                When Hornady came out with their ammo, there were all kinds of reported problems from people who did not have the Grendel chamber and not one that I read that was the Grendel chamber.
                This was just the first batch of ammo released by Hornady and something was changed by Hornady on further batches to make the ammo work for everyone.
                But I still wonder how many people had this problem and said that the Grendel doesn't shoot well and left the Grendel Horde.
                These are the people you never hear about and they just disappear from the group.

                Also, with the new Wolf ammo coming out being laquer coated, how many of these people with the tighter neck are going to have problems and get made at the Grendel.
                Hopefully no one will have a problem but like people like Cbubac, they won't know until it's too late.

                As LRRPF52 says hopefully this all gets straightened out sooner than later and we'll all be happy and safe.

                Like you, I also read the going back and forth between people for years on the old forum but with it being crashed, the new people looking for info, can't go to those posts and get educated before they make a decision.

                Thanks again for your input and if nothing else it gets alot of this on the forum again so new buyers can educate themselves.
                I'm such a slow typer that I wish I could have been able to just copy and paste from the old forum.
                I think this should be a great help to keep everyone informed.

                Good Shooting!

                Lee

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                • #38
                  Thanks Lee,

                  Take care.

                  Jim

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                  • LightningII

                    #39
                    Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                    I wonder how many years it will take to work these kinks out, and if most of these other shops will just start making Grendel chambers with Grendel bolts to the standard SAAMI spec, or continue to deviate.

                    The fact that several barrel shops are using some other chamber has been stopping me from ordering from them. I don't want a bolt that has the wrong depth for the Grendel extractor rim dimensions, and I don't want a .295" or .297" or .292" neck. I just want the SAAMI chamber that I can expect industry support from, with known loads. I learned recently how important start pressure is with solids, and if you change the neck tightness, and throat angle from a known chamber, that is going to have effects on start pressure bigtime.

                    Since we're mostly dealing with AR's, you can't just have your barrel short-chambered by someone with a true Grendel reamer to correct the problem, because your gas port is already drilled. People need to get on the SAAMI chamber already.
                    It will take as long as necesary for problems to be identified, studied, and fixed through redesign. The bigger the sample ( more shooters) the more quickly this cycle will mature. But as long as there aren't any real problems, we'll all just sit here and "what if" it to death. Hopefully, as someone else has mentioned, this will be a .223 vs. 5.56 kind of deal, where it won't ever become a significant problem.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      The things that turned people off were the continuous stream of lies about Bill A. and the Grendel. Notice how there were no such lies about the Ghengis and Beowulf? What does that tell you?

                      The lies about licensing fees,
                      Bill A. being some kind evil capitalist "...who didn't want ANYBODY else making Grendel barrels so he could control the whole market."
                      "The Grendel is only good for punching paper."
                      "The Grendel is only capable of decent velocities if you have a 24" barrel."

                      It's all BS, and shooters have learned that there is a campaign that is still very much alive to sideline the Grendel for some reason. I mean, how much of a threat can this little cartridge be for people to have to resort to endless lies about it?

                      That is the real turn-off, and it isn't with Bill A. or the Grendel, it is with those who need to resort to lying for whatever reason. I actually used to wonder if there was credibility in these claims, since I was hearing them from so many places. Turns out they were ALL BS. Go figure...

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                      • #41
                        LRR. I probably shouldn't respond - I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing match over it. I'll be honest though, as one who was intrigued by the cartridge and only wanted to find a way to start shooting it, I don't think they way Bill A. and AA handled the situation helped matters very much. Why not do what Baer did and make the reamer open source? I suspect that might have worked out better for all concerned. But, it was Bill's to do with as he wanted. And that's cool. I don't think I have a dog in this fight. I'm just a guy who likes to shoot interesting guns.

                        Now I don't know why Satern and Baer bailed on the Grendel chamber and began selling a variant. All I know for sure is - they did. I'm sorry, but the explanations from AA just don't hunt. If it's a fabulous cartridge (and I think it is), why can't everyone chamber for it and all make a living? Did Baer and Satern (and whoever else) decide to sneak around behind Bill's back and create a similar design just to screw him? Why would they? I can't think of a reason.

                        So, yes, I got turned off. Now I'm turned on. But, no I'm not a true believer. I like my lbc, quite a lot actually. I may get a bolt gun chambered for the Grendel cartridge some day, although I can't say which chamber I'd use. I like snug chambers and tightish necks. In my experience they tend to be more accurate. I really would like to see a Grendel chamber/reamer print, though. Now that it's SAMMI'd, will that be generally available? I checked PTG and, although they offer a Grendel reamer, it's not on their SAMMI list yet. Of course it may be available now. If so, could someone point me in the right direction?

                        First, though, I'm parts gathering to build a 6x45.
                        Last edited by Guest; 02-14-2012, 08:56 PM.

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                        • BjornF16
                          Chieftain
                          • Jun 2011
                          • 1825

                          #42
                          Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                          The fact that several barrel shops are using some other chamber has been stopping me from ordering from them. I don't want a bolt that has the wrong depth for the Grendel extractor rim dimensions, and I don't want a .295" or .297" or .292" neck.
                          Ditto...I've no interest in supporting non-Grendel 6.5mm/.264" chambers in the AR platform.

                          This did push me to just "make" my own SBR...all IAW the unconstitutional (IMNSHO) NFA.
                          LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
                          Defend the Constitution and our 2A Rights!

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                          • bwaites
                            Moderator
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 4445

                            #43
                            Originally posted by vfrdrvr View Post
                            LRR. I probably shouldn't respond - I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing match over it. I'll be honest though, as one who was intrigued by the cartridge and only wanted to find a way to start shooting it, I don't think they way Bill A. and AA handled the situation helped matters very much. Why not do what Baer did and make the reamer open source? I suspect that might have worked out better for all concerned. But, it was Bill's to do with as he wanted. And that's cool. I don't think I have a dog in this fight. I'm just a guy who likes to shoot interesting guns.

                            Without a single, unified standard, there would have been no chance at a SAAMI specification and acceptance. Look at all the different 6.8 chambers, and yet the SAAMI accepted chamber is now vilified as being the wrong one! AA allowed anyone who wanted to follow the Grendel spec to make Grendels. There was no fee, they just required that you use the actual Grendel specifications. That's why little companies could afford to build Grendels. Making the reamer open source would have opened a can of worms, because anyone who decided they thought a .295 neck was better would have made a .295 neck Grendel, leading to what happened when Hornady released their ammo and all those non-Grendel chambers had issues.

                            Now I don't know why Satern and Baer bailed on the Grendel chamber and began selling a variant. All I know for sure is - they did. I'm sorry, but the explanations from AA just don't hunt. If it's a fabulous cartridge (and I think it is), why can't everyone chamber for it and all make a living? Did Baer and Satern (and whoever else) decide to sneak around behind Bill's back and create a similar design just to screw him? Why would they? I can't think of a reason.

                            Satern and Les Baer made business decisions, that was their right. Contrary to what lots of people would have you believe, it had nothing to do with anyone making a living. At least part of Les Baer's decision was that he wanted to use an other than Grendel chamber, making it as accurate as they could with a single, specified load. The Grendel chamber was specifically designed to be accurate with as many bullets between 85-140 grains as possible. There are some compromises there. Alexander Arms licensed the name to anyone who would build to the Grendel spec. Having enough rifles out there to that spec was part of the reason that Hornady decided to take on the ammunition, and make it a SAAMI cartridge. Without that, it simply wouldn't have happened, because Hornady wouldn't have known what spec to make the ammuntion to. Note all the issues with 6.8 ammunition, and the "Combat" loads, and other variants.

                            So, yes, I got turned off. Now I'm turned on. But, no I'm not a true believer. I like my lbc, quite a lot actually. I may get a bolt gun chambered for the Grendel cartridge some day, although I can't say which chamber I'd use. I like snug chambers and tightish necks. In my experience they tend to be more accurate. I really would like to see a Grendel chamber/reamer print, though. Now that it's SAMMI'd, will that be generally available? I checked PTG and, although they offer a Grendel reamer, it's not on their SAMMI list yet. Of course it may be available now. If so, could someone point me in the right direction?

                            I wouldn't use the standard Grendel chamber for a bolt gun. Heck, Bill Alexander has said that it isn't the best option for a bolt gun. I'd certainly talk to stokesrj, he's built a smoking bolt gun and chambered it to his specs. Speedy Gonzales has built some too, and I've heard his are great as well. As for the chamber drawing, I suspect you'll be able to get if from SAAMI, though they are notoriously slow at getting that information out there.

                            First, though, I'm parts gathering to build a 6x45.
                            Without AA having been consistent about toeing the line with the proper Grendel specs, all these other companies couldn't, (or wouldn't) have played the game. Did it slow adoption by other companies? Probably. But now we have a SAAMI standard, and everyone can build to that, or tell people that they have a similar, but different, chamber. That will cause some headaches, but if you buy one of those, you should be able to know it is different BEFORE you buy, not after!
                            Last edited by bwaites; 02-14-2012, 10:19 PM.

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                            • #44
                              @ Bwaites: thanks for the history. However, as I mentioned before, there are a number of things that still don't add up, to me anyway. No matter. That horse is long dead. Whatever else, however, I do agree wholeheartedly that
                              if you buy one of those [variant chambers], you should be able to know it is different BEFORE you buy, not after!
                              Take care.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I really think all of this is much to do about nothing, I have owned a Les Baer 6.5 Grendel before he decided to go the .264 LBC route. I don't think you could make an AR any more accurate than that one is. I have also built bolt rifles with tighter necks. They don't perform better, but they surely perform good enough, less than .5 MOA. I also had a reamer built with no lead and a neck tight enough to require turning but I never used it, because the standard Grendel Chamber is more than accurate enough without turning necks and soft seating. I routinely get five shot groups at 100 yards that are .15-.19 MOA. I can and have shot flys at 100yards with it. So why do you need these other chambers, based on my experience you don't.
                                Here is a test target shot by Les Baer himself with my first Grenel upper that now belongs to Blackfoot on this forum.

                                Now, I would like to see any LBC chamber that will outperform this one. If you have one please post it.
                                The chamber is less important than the quality of the barrel, that's what really matters.
                                Bob

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