Problems wih 130 TMK

[daved20319]

So I recently got back into the Grendel world, put together an AR using a BCA side charger upper and Aero lower. Not looking for a long range precision load, my max range available is maybe 400 yards, so I planned on staying with the lighter bullets, mostly the 120-123 class. However, I did have some partial boxes of 130 gr. ELD-M's and TMK's, so decided to load up some test batches. As load data for the two bullets was pretty nearly identical across several data sources, I decided to use the same charge weights of Varget with both bullets, only altering the COL per published data. No problems with the ELD-M's, but the TMK's were a different story. The first couple of charge increments were fine (.3 gr. increments), but then I started seeing some bullet deformation from the seating stem, as well as growing COL. This continued to get worse as the charge weight went up, until it got to the point that I couldn't seat them deep enough no matter what I did. Seating die is a Forster micrometer. Not happy, but slept on it, and decided to pull them down and try again with new bullets. Same result, and now I have a bunch of bullets that aren't good for anything but sighters/foulers. Pulled them all down again and reloaded with a different powder to use as sighters/foulers, the bullets are damaged enough by the seater that I have no faith they'll group worth a damn.

So where did I go wrong? I realize this is a rather long bullet, and that Varget is a bulky powder, but none of the load manuals I checked showed even max loads of Varget as compressed, and certainly not compressed enough to squish bullets. Even reloading them using Ramshot TAC, I was getting some crunching, and that was with a middle of the charge range load. Is the Forster seating stem a bad fit to this particular bullet, or is it just a bad bullet choice for this particular cartridge? I know I loaded a few of these with my previous Grendel, a Howa 1500 Mini. No problems, but that was with a different seater, and a different powder, so not an apples to apples comparison. Regardless, I definitely won't be using these again in the Grr, mostly just curious what others have experienced with this bullet. Thanks.

Dave

[Rosecrans1]

Hi Dave,

Please post the powder charges of Varget you were using for the 130 TMK's. I know for the Berger 130gr Hybrid, I couldn't get much in the cases before I was compressing. I stopped at 27.5gr of Varget with a COAL of 2.250". I never got to 2300fps which was what I was hoping for.

[tdbru]

Hello Dave,
i realize lately you need to use what you have on hand. Varget seems a bit slow on burn rate for the 6.5 Grendel so I can see that you would have to fill the case. I was running into powder compression problems with CFE223 and Barnes 100gr. TTSX myself.

Do you have any H4895 handy? this is a bit faster burning powder, also has a very low temp coefficient. If you have some H4895, give that a try rather than Varget. Consult reloading manuals of course but the max charge weights for H4895 are going to be less than Varget so you might have enough room left in the case to avoid severe powder compression.

Varget is on the slower end of the burning rate range for the 6.5 Gr so will fill up the case more than powders that have a bit faster burn rate.

for example my next range test with the 130gr. ELDM is 26.5gr. of H4895.

Alliant Pro Power Varmint and CFE223 would also work for the 130 gr. class target bullets I would think. I've also got some 130gr. ELDM loads to test with 28.5gr. of Alliant Pro Power Varmint and 31.7gr. of CFE223 with the same 130gr. ELDM.

I've wanted to try the 130gr. TMK but so far haven't been able to find any to buy so I cannot say that I wouldn't also have problems with the 130gr. Sierra TMK either. However as you can see with the test loads that I have yet to try, the H4895 load is the least amount so should leave more room in the case for that 130gr. Sierra TMK.
regards,
tdbru

[myrifle]

So I recently got back into the Grendel world, put together an AR using a BCA side charger upper and Aero lower. Not looking for a long range precision load, my max range available is maybe 400 yards, so I planned on staying with the lighter bullets, mostly the 120-123 class. However, I did have some partial boxes of 130 gr. ELD-M's and TMK's, so decided to load up some test batches. As load data for the two bullets was pretty nearly identical across several data sources, I decided to use the same charge weights of Varget with both bullets, only altering the COL per published data. No problems with the ELD-M's, but the TMK's were a different story. The first couple of charge increments were fine (.3 gr. increments), but then I started seeing some bullet deformation from the seating stem, as well as growing COL. This continued to get worse as the charge weight went up, until it got to the point that I couldn't seat them deep enough no matter what I did. Seating die is a Forster micrometer. Not happy, but slept on it, and decided to pull them down and try again with new bullets. Same result, and now I have a bunch of bullets that aren't good for anything but sighters/foulers. Pulled them all down again and reloaded with a different powder to use as sighters/foulers, the bullets are damaged enough by the seater that I have no faith they'll group worth a damn.

So where did I go wrong? I realize this is a rather long bullet, and that Varget is a bulky powder, but none of the load manuals I checked showed even max loads of Varget as compressed, and certainly not compressed enough to squish bullets. Even reloading them using Ramshot TAC, I was getting some crunching, and that was with a middle of the charge range load. Is the Forster seating stem a bad fit to this particular bullet, or is it just a bad bullet choice for this particular cartridge? I know I loaded a few of these with my previous Grendel, a Howa 1500 Mini. No problems, but that was with a different seater, and a different powder, so not an apples to apples comparison. Regardless, I definitely won't be using these again in the Grr, mostly just curious what others have experienced with this bullet. Thanks.

Dave

Diffrent cases have diffrent case capacity and your loads were grossly over compressed and now you have done irreversible damage to your seater stem.

The seater stem in the foster micro seater is very very soft. It says it in the instructions to not use it for loads anytime their is powder compression. I learned from first hand experience.

You need a diffrent powder if you have h4895 that would help but it to is a bit bulky for loads that short. Varget will work and produce great velocity's if you can load them out very long like in the 2.390 to 2.4 load length range anything at 2.300 are shorter is going to compress with heavy bullets and varget in the grendel case.

Edit to add.

You could try a 9 or 12 inch drop tube. But I dont think that's going to be enough help. Your better off trying a diffrent powder.

[daved20319]

Diffrent cases have diffrent case capacity and your loads were grossly over compressed and now you have done irreversible damage to your seater stem.

The seater stem in the foster micro seater is very very soft. It says it in the instructions to not use it for loads anytime their is powder compression. I learned from first hand experience.

You need a diffrent powder if you have h4895 that would help but it to is a bit bulky for loads that short. Varget will work and produce great velocity's if you can load them out very long like in the 2.390 to 2.4 load length range anything at 2.300 are shorter is going to compress with heavy bullets and varget in the grendel case.

Edit to add.

You could try a 9 or 12 inch drop tube. But I dont think that's going to be enough help. Your better off trying a diffrent powder.

It's Redding that says NOT to use their micrometer seating dies with compressed loads, not Forster. As to "grossly over compressed", why didn't ANY of my load data sources show the Varget load as compressed, even at max? Ya'll might want to go back and review some of your own information .

More info, max charge was 27.5 gr., brass was new Starline. I used exactly the same charge weights with the Hornady ELD-M's with no issues. I do have some other powders on hand, although H4895 isn't one of them. Like I said in my OP, I won't be wasting any more time or resources on the TMK's, I was just curious what went wrong. Later.

Dave

[jbmarshtx]

It's Redding that says NOT to use their micrometer seating dies with compressed loads, not Forster. As to "grossly over compressed", why didn't ANY of my load data sources show the Varget load as compressed, even at max? Ya'll might want to go back and review some of your own information .

More info, max charge was 27.5 gr., brass was new Starline. I used exactly the same charge weights with the Hornady ELD-M's with no issues. I do have some other powders on hand, although H4895 isn't one of them. Like I said in my OP, I won't be wasting any more time or resources on the TMK's, I was just curious what went wrong. Later.

Dave

I don't know how accurate the JBM bullet length chart is, but the 130 TMK (1.368) is about 0.05 longer than the 130 ELDM 1.310). That's likely the issue between the differences in the two if they were loaded to the same length. The Nosler 130 data lists 26.5 grains of H4895 as 101% and compressed, loaded to 2.260 length. My experience with Varget and H4895 in my bolt action is that varget is compressed at a lower load the H4895.

[Rosecrans1]

More info, max charge was 27.5 gr., brass was new Starline.

Thanks, Dave. That was my max as well for Varget with my Hornady once fired brass. I would take each case before seating and tap it about 30 seconds on the bench to settle the powder.
I agree with the others that Varget and heavier projectiles in Grendel limit your case capacity. H4895 is very good. I do not recommend CFE223 due to it's poor temp stability UNLESS you live in a climate that doesn't vary much through the seasons. I have PPV but haven't played much with it and am not sure how temp stable it is.
27.5gr of Varget compress with a 130 Berger hybrid gave me 2280 ft/sec 5 shot average and was not as accurate as my 27.2gr load using the same Bergers.

[myrifle]

It's Redding that says NOT to use their micrometer seating dies with compressed loads, not Forster. As to "grossly over compressed", why didn't ANY of my load data sources show the Varget load as compressed, even at max? Ya'll might want to go back and review some of your own information .

More info, max charge was 27.5 gr., brass was new Starline. I used exactly the same charge weights with the Hornady ELD-M's with no issues. I do have some other powders on hand, although H4895 isn't one of them. Like I said in my OP, I won't be wasting any more time or resources on the TMK's, I was just curious what went wrong. Later.

Dave

If I was at home I would take you a pic of the instructions that came with my foster micro seater that clearly says. Dont not use with compressed loads.

Did you use the same case as used in the book data? If not then you cant expect to have the same case capacity. Your also sticking a much longer bullet on top of powder then the eld-m is. So again you can expect too load to the same length and not get compression.

We dont need to review your load data you already posted. You are asking for the help, not us.

You seem to be forgetting the two bullets you are talking about are of much diffrent lengths. And you seem too be assuming your grendel brass has or should have the same case capacity as the book data your going off of.

But you seem too have your answers already made up and getting touchy about the answers you got. So best of luck too you sir.

[Dt219]

Same as above my Forster set says the same do not use with compressed loads also

[daved20319]

If I was at home I would take you a pic of the instructions that came with my foster micro seater that clearly says. Dont not use with compressed loads.

Did you use the same case as used in the book data? If not then you cant expect to have the same case capacity. Your also sticking a much longer bullet on top of powder then the eld-m is. So again you can expect too load to the same length and not get compression.

We dont need to review your load data you already posted. You are asking for the help, not us.

You seem to be forgetting the two bullets you are talking about are of much diffrent lengths. And you seem too be assuming your grendel brass has or should have the same case capacity as the book data your going off of.

But you seem too have your answers already made up and getting touchy about the answers you got. So best of luck too you sir.

Not trying to be snotty, but also not a total newb that appreciates being talked down too. And BTW, it's Forster, NOT Foster. A question for you that might clear up some of the angst. How old are your instructions? I have 2 Ultra Micrometer seaters, a 6.5 Grendel that's maybe a month or so old, and a 6.5 Creedmoor that's around a year, both have the same instructions, which are also the same as what's posted on the Forster site, none of which say anything at all about compressed loads. I no longer have my Redding micrometer seater, but I do recall those instructions saying not to use with compressed loads. So maybe Forster now hardens their seater stems?

As to your other questions, no, not using the same case, obviously. Also not using the same seating depth for both bullets, the Hornady data called for a shorter OAL than the Sierra, 2.45" vs. 2.6" IIRC.

For the rest of it, I'm not assuming anything, you're the one presenting yourself as the guy with the only right answers . I'd also say you're the one getting his nose out of joint, I was mostly just trying to find out if anyone else has had similar results with this bullet and powder combo. Your responses verged on trolling, IMO, but maybe I'm just being touchy . Later.

Dave

[LRRPF52]