My primary defensive rifle is a 6.5. I do not read much about using 6.5 defensively

[Harvest123]

I specifically bought my 6.5 grendel after looking at the balllistics. I knew it could reach out there, and that was one thing that drew me to it. However, I was watching "Mac" on Ultimate Weapons, and he shot right through a car into a dummy. Could have been a FMJ meant to penetrate, but the AR round would not.

Regardless of TV, I knew it would penetrate barriers, shoot farther and more acccurate at LONG distances, using a medium load with an Amax tip or other ballistic or soft point ammo would be devestating to an assailant, would rip through body armor (most soft with right load - so will 5.56, I know) and all I had to do is change the upper on my rifle to a 16" carbine.

I simply have not heard much about the defensive use of the cartridge on the forum. Long shots are great, but keeping my sweet behind and those I love safe was why I bought my first 6.5. If any of you have thoughts on the defensive use of the round, chime in. Best Defensve ammo, optics, lighting and even lasers.

I would really like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

[A320PYLT]

Define defense please. Defense in the military sense then yes, home defense NO!! A rifle is a lot of gun to bring up quickly and if you have an intruder its likely by the time you hear them they are already too close. I have handguns as home defense BUT dont use them all for that purpose. Take for example my .357 mag, great for home defense however there is the risk of that bullet passing thru the intruder continuing on out my wall and into my next door neighbors home! I made the final choice to use my .45ACP for home defense. Big bore bullet but slow traveling so no real worries about over penetrations. The .45 will knock the person down and put a hole in them and thats all you need.If they are wearing a vest the shock will be enough that they will feel they have been hit by a VW and that is enough time to be right up on who ever it is with a lethal shot if necessary.

A320PYLT

[KentuckyBuddha]

Pretty much what he said...


For home defense, especially living in an urban environment or where a clear quarter behind in a spot you would be looking to get and intruder in a fatal funnel isn't a likely option...a round like 5.7x28 would be vastly superior both in penetration of armor (since you mentioned it) AND reducing over-penetration risk posed to friendlies. That sounds like a win-win to me bub!

Shows like that one that Mac whatever is on, appear to me to be glorified infomercials. His attention to detail and commitment to accuracy was explained to me in full when I saw an episode of that very show where this man, who was allegedly a SEAL sniper, said the typical AK was chambered in .308. The show was repeated for years without correction. Simple mistakes happen...but to not know the most popular combat weapon in the history of the world is chambered in 7.62x39 and then to keep showing it...well that is just beyond sloppy, and made me unable to trust anything I saw on there after that. Just my .02!

cliffs: do not pass go...do not collect $200 and get yourself a PS-90 (or five seven if you like) and SS 195 ammo and be done with it. All the best man!

[Harvest123]

I should have clarified home defensive vs outside defensive. The defense I am speaking of is a stand off type in the open. Not throwing End of World stuff around. Not at all.

I have a 5/7 with amax rounds for in home use, and a Kimber high cap that they do not make any more. If the need presented, I thought the 6.5 would serve better than a .223 at distance around my mom's property that is extremely secluded.

During Katrina, we were fired upon and the house was a target of some folks moving north. After counting the holes, we were hit 9 times and we could see individuals with long rifles. There were no police anywhere close, and I thought I might have to deal with desperate folks with high powered rifles using a handgun, and I did engage with the .45, but with no real effect except to make it clear that we were not an easy target. Only time I have ever fired a weapon in defensive.

It really, really scared me. The defensive use of the 6.5 is part of a 3 perimeter plan. The 6.5 being the longer distances if needed. I talked to a friend who is a cop that told me later they could have run us down easily, and he suggested an in home, medium and longer range set up for cases similar to what happened (hoping nothing ever happens like that again). I am the least confrontational individual you will meet. A youth minister and clinical worker. But, I have gone through some basic training with my buddy the police Lt using an AR platform.

I guess I needed to lay the story out before throwing the question out. It was then I became interested in defensive use of a carbine.

[txgunner00]

Check these out.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

In general fast, lightweight, soft point bullets penetrate typical residential wall less than handgun rounds.

In the situation you outlined above, I would take 6.5 over .233 or 7.62x39 any day. If I had to pick a bullet it probably would be one of the 95-100 grain options. Scary stuff. Glad it ended with out tragedy.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Well, that changes things quite a bit then! Yhea for medium/long range there would be nothing better. I am kind of surprised that a cop buddy would recommend a "defensive" weapon for that kind of range. It would be tough to make a case for self defense at hundreds of yards away, but I reckon you are not talking about an ordinary situation anyhow. I too am thrilled that there was just holes in siding and drywall in a spot that could just as well have been tragic.

If you were worried about that kind of thing having easy to access places in the home for cover and not just concealment as well as perimeter monitoring that you can see in the places you spend the most time would not be unwise.

For what you are describing though the 6.5 has clearly the best physics of any round in my opinion. I bet those Amax or new SST 123grain bullets would be something that would work well for what you want.

[A320PYLT]

Spot on Kentucky! That switches the game play all the way up.

So to answer the question and to be exact about it YES the 6.5 is far superior than the 5.56/.223

A320PYLT

[VASCAR2]

My main concern with a firearm I use for duty/defense is reliability. My 6.5 Grendel has been as reliable as my duty 5.56 or Glock 22. These are as reliable as they get if properly maintained and fed good ammunition. The only down side to the 6.5 Grendel is a factory loaded defense load. I have shot some reloaded 85 grain & 100 grain Sierra Varmint HP, 90 grain TNT, 95 grain V-Max and 100 grain Nolser BT hunting. Of these I really like the Nosler 100 grain BT hunting bullet. In the limited use in hunting and shooting jugs of water I like the way this bullet behaves. If this round over penetrates I don't think it would have as much mass as say a 120 - 123 grain bullet.

I'm just not sure the 123 grain A-Max is a good round for most defensive situations where it can be very costly if you make the wrong decision. I would say that the 123 grain A-Max, 123 SMK or Scenar would have more penetration than I'd be comfortable. A shooting my dept was involved in had an officer fire a 168 BTHP match bullet 7.62 X 51 at 40 yards. Needless to say the round went a long way through the house after penetrating the perp. I could see the A-Max doing about the same.

My situation near my residence in a very rural setting and this would not be a concern however I prefer to use factory ammo for defense. Most of the time when I travel I have my 5.56 carbine loaded with 5 mags of 55 grain PSP and 1 mag of FMJ ammo. I take my 5.56 because I never know where trouble will arise. The ability of resupply and versatility is just hard to beat with a 5.56 AR. Around my home I would have no qualms using the 6.5 Grain 123 grain A-Max. Analyze your situation and there might be a lot worse choices than the 6.5 Grendel.

[LRRPF52]

We've discussed this at-length before. I would have no problem using a varmint bullet in the Grendel inside the house, but I also have handguns at the ready.

Pistols tend to over-penetrate if they are higher velocity like a 9mm, but much of the time, they under-penetrate. I had a 9mm blow through both of my knees, starting with impacting my femur, and it landed within 4ft of the final exit on my left lateral calf. Hollow points can exacerbate the unwanted under-penetrate terminal effect, especially when winter clothing is in the mix, as it is here where I live currently. I like the 7.62x25 cartridge in a pistol better than 9mm, .40, or .45 ACP, and I used to be a .45 ACP only kinda guy. I just wish more modern carry pistols were chambered in the 7.62x25.

Back to the Grendel: It seems that it would make a great perimeter defense cartridge, especially if vehicles are involved. For an urbanized area, bullet construction is going to drive the positives and negatives. +1 for reliability. Most of us use 10rd or 5rd mags when we're out shooting for accuracy, while very few actually run their guns with the 25rd mags. Test your system out before relying on it in a defensive scenario, and be well-versed in clearing the different types of malfs with every firearm you own.

Bill A. said the 100gr Berger load they have is pretty explosive on ballistic gelatin, if you want a factory load.

7.62 NATO or .308 Winchester with common ammo is way too much for the house, and your ears will not recover from the muzzle blast. The AK is very similar in the house. I haven't fired my Grendel without ear pro, and I don't intend to, so I can't compare them. 5.56 has a much higher-pitched, ear-piercing sound to it in the house.

[Schwag173]

The 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds are both excellent within their respective envelopes, but the two envelopes don't overlap much. The 6.5 Grendel envelope, however, nicely overlays both 5.56 and 7.62. There are conditions that may make 5.56 or 7.62 superior to the Grendel, but as a general-purpose weapon the versatility offered by Grendel makes it a winner.

[Variable]

The other guys have pretty much covered it already, so all can say is: Yep!!! The 6.5 Grendel is definitely a superior round for antipersonnel use in rural applications. I have a 10.5" for in the house use, a 14.5" for general purpose, and a 19.5" for longer applications if defending from a static (home) location

You might want to also try out the Wolf 120MPT load for general use. It isn't the typical "lowly" Wolf round people would expect. From my own personal plinking experience it peels sheet metal quite nicely, and I wouldn't hesitate to unload on folks thinking vehicles were "cover" with it. The other loadings all have their merits, but even the Wolf MPT would be quite formidable.

Hopefully the Wolf steel case will turn out even more suitable for general purpose penetration in rural conflict. A Barnes solid would be nice, but who could afford a massive stash of that stuff?

No matter what load you choose, the superior sectional density of the 6.5 projectiles will ensure you don't want to have to be the one trying to hide from them!LOL

[A320PYLT]

The other guys have pretty much covered it already, so all can say is: Yep!!! The 6.5 Grendel is definitely a superior round for antipersonnel use in rural applications. I have a 10.5" for in the house use, a 14.5" for general purpose, and a 19.5" for longer applications if defending from a static (home) location

You might want to also try out the Wolf 120MPT load for general use. It isn't the typical "lowly" Wolf round people would expect. From my own personal plinking experience it peels sheet metal quite nicely, and I wouldn't hesitate to unload on folks thinking vehicles were "cover" with it. The other loadings all have their merits, but even the Wolf MPT would be quite formidable.

Hopefully the Wolf steel case will turn out even more suitable for general purpose penetration in rural conflict. A Barnes solid would be nice, but who could afford a massive stash of that stuff?

No matter what load you choose, the superior sectional density of the 6.5 projectiles will ensure you don't want to have to be the one trying to hide from them!LOL

I have not fired any wolf stuff in my 6.5 but I do have some experience with Russian ammo. Tulammo, Wolf , silver bear all the same and its was a bit under powered for my taste. I still have 3 boxes of .45acp ammo that I want to get rid of. I staggered it and found that crap was under powered. Now as for the steel cases, not sure I want to put that thru my 6.5. It also tends to be very dirty as well. I understand the MPT in your opinion having used it is pretty good. Based on that I my just have to try a box!

A320PYLT

[Harvest123]

LRRP is exactly right about the mal drills. One of the things we worked on. As far as the legal apsect goes, I know the end result could be horrific for me without a really unusual situation. My world changed when I saw what could have happened to my mom if I had not been there. I couldn't do much, but it was enough to avoid a run through at her home.

I should have given the back ground of my question. My fault.

LRRP - you took a 9mm though both knees? I hope it has not affected you permanently. Again thanks for the all the input on defensive rounds. I appreciate the wisdom!

[bsears10]

What about a shotgun for close and semi-medium range? You can use a combo of buckshot and slugs/ slugs would do a good job on a car door I am shure?

[A320PYLT]

What about a shotgun for close and semi-medium range? You can use a combo of buckshot and slugs/ slugs would do a good job on a car door I am shure?

NOTHING screams get the hell out louder than a 12ga pump racking a round!!! The sound of that is universal, in every language it says the same thing. I would not put a slug in it to fire in the house or even 00 buck for that matter but some good #6 shot hitting that azz is plenty, aim for the upper torso and get some face in that shot. That shot, hitting face would incapacitate anyone.

A320PYLT