Riddle me this

[JASmith]

There is undoubtably a well-hidden armor defeat requirement. One can surmise from the case, volume caliber, and pressures indicated that they need a rather high muzzle velocity and heavy slug to meet that requirement.

The case volumes and pressures for the Fury are substantially higher than we see with the Grendel.

Nonetheless, there are arguments in favor of a Grendel or Grendel-like cartridge when one accepts the fact that one cartridge may not do everything needed for all self-defense roles. In other words, the Grendel comes as close as any single cartridge can to meeting most of the needs.

[Konocti's Wigwam]

There is undoubtably a well-hidden armor defeat requirement.

Yeah, I didn't think about that being a requirement, I will admit that. I'm not very keen on the 5.56, but the Grendel gives the mini-action about as much as you will get out of it, albeit at a loss of velocity.

the Grendel comes as close as any single cartridge can to meeting most of the needs.

That's why it stumps me, it is a better round than a 5.56, IMO, but that is also subjective on the needs. The Grendel just seems like a sweet spot in the mini-acion.

Those Furys and Westerns are not very light. Do they actually offer much better than 7.62x51? At some point one needs to go to a bigger cartridge.

[JASmith]

One of the challenges is that the US Military is the second largest bureaucracy in the US -- Just behind the entire Federal Government. There are some very large and ossified ones in other parts of the world too.

As these entities grow and age, making "progress" with a not subtle resistance to change becomes a common theme.

Hence we see large and complicated studies to determine "just the right" path forward, but with enough subtle "keep things the same" to make true progress very challenging. The introduction of the AR15 with the 5.56 was a notable exception along with standing up of NASA. Both were aided by the existential struggle with communism. The AR and 5.56 were helped by the most powerful general in the US finding the cartridge and rifle very useful for protecting airecraft and missile sites. The fact that the cartridge and rifle made more sense than the M14 / 7.62 made things easier for the Army to accept the obligation to follow suit

A larger, more significant, bureaucracy tail-twister was World War II. How many new tanks, aircraft and ships were designed, tested and fielded in huge quantities during those FOUR years? Today we see mutiple decades passing between expressed need and fielding of new systems.

Today, most, if not all, of those factors have faded in perceived importance, so we trudge forward studying things to death by committee with little to no real progress.

Military firearms and cartridges have largely shared the same fate because the only "compelling" arguments for change have resulted in tweaks to the existing AR15 or cartridge. This is made worse because the individual weapon is, in the large scheme, deemed not particularly important to war winning.

So, we get small changes that frequently don't connect to the needs of the vast majority of individual soldiers. "Those Furys and Westerns" mentioned by Konocti's Wigwam are an example.

[Konocti's Wigwam]

A larger, more significant, bureaucracy tail-twister was World War II. How many new tanks, aircraft and ships were designed, tested and fielded in huge quantities during those FOUR years? Today we see mutiple decades passing between expressed need and fielding of new systems.

I have never served, but have worked on a document storage retrieval system used to track submarine parts back in Newark, NJ and track the Bradley defense vehicle, produced by FMC right next to the San Jose airport. I have never knew of that development facility so close to the airport. That app would do E size images (16 x A size sheets). Right by the airport they have a whole test bed, small rivers/streams, sand, etc...I've been into Moffet a few times, but I never saw anything so amazing like that test area FMC had next to the airport.

Military firearms and cartridges have largely shared the same fate because the only "compelling" arguments for change have resulted in tweaks to the existing AR15 or cartridge. This is made worse because the individual weapon is, in the large scheme, deemed not particularly important to war winning.

That's an interesting comment as, isn't each troop issued an M4 ???

I just have to ponder why they don't wedge the 6.5 Grendel into those arms? The cost savings alone is huge. OTOH, when was the last time the Governement cared about how they spend our tax money?

I didn't realize previously, but you're the same Joe Smith that authored the reloading handbooks with Paul Scott and Greg Luli, aren't you? Speaking for myself, I can't thank you guys enough for these amazing handbooks. I wish I had the same type text for the 8.6 blackout and 300 blackout. I unfortunately kept putting off the 6.5 Grendel when I should have probably used it rather than 300 blackout for the hunting I plan, as it is a much more forgiving round. Can I ask you what UC you retired from? My son just went back to UCLA to finish up his Design Media Art degree (DESMA).

[JASmith]

[Konocti's Wigwam]

You guys should be some of the proudest guys on the planet, I think the handbooks are some of the most useful for me.