Stopping power by Caliber

[LRRPF52]

For having just been shot in the face, I think he did a mighty fine job of making all his hits on the perpetrator, especially one-handed from an awkward position that I've never seen simulated in competition or formal high-volume shoot courses. I think that since he was a SWAT guy, he had a lot more trigger time than your average officer, and I'll be the first to say that I would not want to be near the area where police are using firearms to respond to a lethal threat. He was using whatever hollow point duty load they had, which was one of the main ones in .40 S&W that I see in LE circles-maybe the Ranger SXT's...

Either way, the kid was very well built and didn't want to die. The cop said that very little time transpired during the exchange...only seconds, and he kept shooting until the threat was eliminated. After posting that story earlier, I was researching into ways that I might reduce the snap of the recoil in my M&P, and started to consider a .357 SIG drop-in pipe with a Sprinco recoil reducer, and get a bunch of Starline brass, .357 projectiles, and dies. I still like the capacity of a 9mm, especially with 17rds, and carrying +P+ SXT's or other good bullets will provide better penetration than a standard load. I just learn to hate .40 S&W the more I shoot it, and I've owned several different pistols in the caliber. Even my all-steel Para P-16 set-up for competition was jumpier than a full-power .45 ACP out of my P-14. Most guys in comps are using hand-loaded and tuned recipes for low recoil and power factor, or to make a muzzle device work for them, but I've never really bought into that because all my pistol training is geared towards realistic scenarios with carry ammunition, not punching paper.

If I could get an M&P chambered in 7.62x25, I would use that. That caliber smokes right through everything I've shot with it, and has very mild handling characteristics. We've also discussed the 6.5x25 CBJ here, which is basically rifle velocity out of a necked-down 9mm, with sabots and different projectile types for everything from armor-piercing to frangible.

[RangerRick]

Your story about the cop in the shooting pretty much makes the case for shot placement. A shot to the head isn't worth much if all you shoot through is cheeck, lips and gums. Once you hit brain matter (cerebral cortex even better) the fight is over regardless of caliber.

I would never presume to armchair quarterback a cop that's been in a shooting. But, your story is also another example of how shooting less but more well aimed shots is better than shooting many poorly aimed shots.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the cop here.

I'd prefer to use anything over 9mm for better performance. More catastrophic damage than the smaller rounds and better permanent wound cavity regardless of expansion. But, that's my own personal preference. Do I carry smaller calibers .... of course. Like I said any gun is better than none.

That's the ideal but the problem is as soon as the firefight starts you get get a massive infusion of adrenaline and your pupils dilate and you can't even see the sights on your gun because of the reduced depth of field.

Well trained teams on a mission can temper that, but you have to be a very cool customer to go from chasing a mall shoplifter to fighting for your life in a matter of seconds, particularly after you've been hit.

Most cops involved in shootings have no idea how many rounds they fired until either the slide locks back or they pull the mag and count. In the latter case they usually underestimate by a factor of two to three.

It takes nearly daily training to prepare for situations like that, and most cops don't get that opportunity.

RR

[hm2 clark]

Does anyone know how much data Mr Ellfritz used from WWI? As I remember, Alvin York got his medal from his use of a .45, not an 06. One would think more data would be available for the .45 and 9mm. Not just hand guns but lots and lots of submachine guns in those calibers. WWII on 3 fronts, Korea, Vietnam and lots in between should have yealded a virtual universe of data on stopping power. I have talked to a number of guys who went into viet kong tunnels with .45s and were quite impressed by its stopping power, were any on those in the study? To put another way, in the last 100 years I'll bet well over a million people were shot in anger with these weapons and here we are trying to draw sweeping conclusions on stopping power by examning a very small fraction of the data.

[LRRPF52]

Your question is basically: Do we have a scientific baseline for wound ballistics from the collective real-world results over the last century of warfare? The answer is...Nope. There are no units in the military that collect enemy bodies, and process them through a detailed forensic analysis on a regular basis, to include tracing the wound tracks, retrieving the projectiles, and making conclusions that will be of use to ballisticians. Something about battlefield priorities creates an environment where there are still tens of thousands of soldiers probably unaccounted for, who likely were buried in their trenches for expediency-just the reality of the nature of war.

I have friends that go and dig for war remains and materials from the Second World War, and the field is ripe for the reaper. The only semi-useful studies are fragmented, and mostly exist from shootings in the US, where there are actual forensic pathologies involved. I have yet to see someone gather the various independent studies and try to correlate them in a manner that will be of value to the armed citizen.

In the meantime, I will continue to train to put as many rounds into a threat as fast and as violently as possible, in as many worst-case scenarios as I can craft after reviewing the real-world experiences of those who have survived them, in addition to my own. While there are certain groups that frequently use small arms to effectively dispatch bad guys, and have been doing so for a few decades, we'll never see their ballistics results, and I don't think we need to because they would emphasize training over the tools anyway.

[bwaites]

Mr. Ellifritz data was all current, last 10-20 years or so. No wartime data was used as I undestand it. This was civilian and LEO shootings only.

[Mutt]

The problem with comparing wartime and LEO shootings is the geneva convention for one thing. Everything used (legaly anyway) in wartime is going to be FMJ. All standard issue GI ammo is 9mm FMJ used in a beretta.

Most (if not all) LEO's carry Hollowpoint ammo. Most over the years prefered hydroshocks while more recently talons and golden saber. Most LEO also carry +P+ which is also going to react differently from most off the shelf ammo. Most all LEO departments have a .40 or larger rule for thier duty weapons and only use 9mm and below in there back up weapons. In the early 90's, I was base security and was also a reserve on the locl sheriffs department. The ball .45 ammo I shot on base from my 1911 had much different performance that 230 grain .45 hydroshock +P+ I fired from my colt double eagle I carried on duty out in town. The government issue ball .45 ammo would penetrate better even though it was slower. Where as the +P+ hydroshocks were hotter and faster but opened like an umbrella and didn't penetrate quite as much but left a much larger wound cavity. I much prefered the hydroshock to the ball GI issue, but the two didn't really compare and were more like apples and oranges.

So, there really isn't an apple to apple comparison when comparing military to LEO shootings.

[LRRPF52]

That's the ideal but the problem is as soon as the firefight starts you get get a massive infusion of adrenaline and your pupils dilate and you can't even see the sights on your gun because of the reduced depth of field.

Well trained teams on a mission can temper that, but you have to be a very cool customer to go from chasing a mall shoplifter to fighting for your life in a matter of seconds, particularly after you've been hit.

Most cops involved in shootings have no idea how many rounds they fired until either the slide locks back or they pull the mag and count. In the latter case they usually underestimate by a factor of two to three.

It takes nearly daily training to prepare for situations like that, and most cops don't get that opportunity.

RR

This is the first area that I focus on in training. It's totally different to conduct stress training combined with live fire, like physically-demanding tasks conducted right before shooting, than the physiological conditions RangerRick just described. Stress training petty much only provides the mental stress and increased heart rate, but not the levels of norepinephrine and adrenal cortisols that attack your heart and brain when you find yourself in a situation where death or serious injury is imminent. There is a very noticeable difference between getting down and doing push-ups, sprinting, or dragging someone in a SKEDCO, versus seeing a car about to hit you, or a person with ill intent approaching you in your car. It is even worse when you witness a death or serious injury, especially when you're in proximity to the event to a degree that you painfully realize that it could have been you, or might be you next. There are ways to simulate this in training, but very, very few people are actually doing it.

[VASCAR2]

I agree there are varying degrees of effective training and nothing beats first hand experience. I've been working the streets for a few decades and have actually fired my weapon in high risk encounters. I've experienced the auditory shut down, the feeling of being in slow motion and the tunnel vision which occurs in violent encounters. I've also experienced these effects while doing active shooter training with simmunitions. From living through these events I think your chances of survival are increased if you know your weapons and tactics without having to think what you are going to do in a given situation. The ability to react instinctively and decisively sure can't hurt along with having a fair amount of luck. Mental attitude and innate ability to do the job at hand doesn't hurt either. From being a LEO I've seen a percentage of Officers who had no business being on the job for various reasons.

Personally I've carried revolvers and semi auto handguns, rifles and shotguns in a lot of serious encounters and personally I think it is more important to effectively use your weapon than a particular caliber in handguns. I felt just as well armed with a model S&W 439 with 9MM +P+ ammo as I did with a 45 ACP 185 grain JHP, a 40 S&W with JHP or a 357 Mag with JHP's. I realize that every weapon ammo combo has its own strengths and weaknesses but hopefully through my own knowledge and training I can effectively use the tools I have at hand. If given time I'll always grab a long gun but I also feel its important to know how to protect your own weapon from being used on you. Weapons retention and physical skills rank right in there with situational awareness. The ability to use an iron bar take down at the right moment can be just as important as drawing and firing your pistol accurately.

[LRRPF52]

The most dangerous thing is a well-trained, thinking man in a fight, who is especially comfortable with violence. There are far too many people who enter professions that are governed by violent environments, with no experience in it. This is true of most people in LE, but you do see a trend of guys who gravitate to Infantry and Special Operations units in the military who often had rough upbringings, and are very comfortable with violence...often to the point where they are extremely agitated and frustrated by the insanity of a peacetime, garrison environment. Get them out from under the flagpole, and into a foreign country, with live weapons and tons of ordnance, and they are happy. Impose crazy ROE's on them, and they often get out, knowing that they will not be able to deal with some dirtbag in pressed uniform telling them about combat when they absorb back into the peacetime camouflaged welfare Army, where the screw-ups are promoted, and the true warriors are shunned and punished for being something the desk-jockeys can never be.

The best thing the LE academies could do would be to have "king of the hill" beat down sessions on a regular basis, and instill a violence-friendly workplace. Doing jail duty first often fulfills this role well, since unruly inmates often need physical submission, but it just doesn't quite fit the bill.

That being said, as I peruse my Hornady Reloading manual and check the stats on 7.62x25, they list 1700 fps velocities with 90gr Hornady XTP JHP's. Those will smoke right through soft armor, and I'd really like to see the gel tests with that load. I wish popular pistol makers would offer chamberings and modern mags for the 7.62x25.