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Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - Printable Version

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Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-24-2015

cory Wrote:We have a suitable FMJ? The wolf bimetal crap isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison to a lead cup and core fmj.
How about the Prvi FMJ? It looks like gilding metal jacket.

[Image: ek%208-12-15%20am%20015.JPG]

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - cory - 12-24-2015

Is there any data on this load?

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-24-2015

Factory specs (24" barrel): http://www.prvipartizan.com/search_rb.php?id=A-484

There's a thread on the Prvi FMJ in the Ammunition sub-forum, but I don't recall if it has any chrono or other data.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - Smith5361 - 12-24-2015

Personally Id see the 6.8 SPC or the SPCII replacing it before the Grendel. One reason for this is I believe the Turkish Army already carries rifles in this cartridge thus the precedent is already there. I can't remember any other large military forces that carry a Grendel

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-24-2015

Interesting, if true. The only .mil folks using 6.8 SPC that I've heard of are the Jordanian and Saudi Royal Guards, which have LWRC 6.8 SBRs.

[Image: 24FB8E2B00000578-2922592-image-a-60_1422026323459.jpg]


Translated title is "Royal Guard Shooting" -- the SBRs appear to be the LWRC Six8 UCIW (same weapon seen in the photo above).
[video=youtube;9TjeV3GfvKA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TjeV3GfvKA[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TjeV3GfvKA


FWIW, there have been unsubstantiated claims of USMGA 6.8 LMGs being sold to Middle East customers.

[video=youtube;z2Pq4_XdA-k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Pq4_XdA-k[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Pq4_XdA-k

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - JASmith - 12-24-2015

I think that almost all of us who have studied this conclude that the best place for a cartridge like the Grendel is as a logistically superior replacement for the 7.62 NATO.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-24-2015

At the risk of being a party pooper, I must note there are (at least) a couple of matters that nobody has addressed.

Major issue: What reason is there to think the Army would add a third caliber to the system, solely for LMGs? When it was attempted circa 1970 (with the 6mm SAW), it was rejected by the leadership.

Minor issue: No one has yet proven that a belt-fed Grendel is even feasible. Yes, I know it ain't rocket science, but until one is actually built that works, it remains no more than a theoretical possibility.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - LRRPF52 - 12-24-2015

Smith5361 Wrote:Personally Id see the 6.8 SPC or the SPCII replacing it before the Grendel. One reason for this is I believe the Turkish Army already carries rifles in this cartridge thus the precedent is already there. I can't remember any other large military forces that carry a Grendel

I don't know of many units even in the SOF community who would be interested in reducing soldier's ammo capacity for more recoil, larger mags, with inferior trajectory to the Mk.262 77gr, or the Barnes 70gr TSX load they've been using for a few years now.

Terminal ballistics between the Barnes TSX and the Federal 6.8 loads don't offer any advantages in the 6.8's favor, and there is no change to the current system's weapons with an improved 5.56 load. Real world performance on people even from 10" guns is impressive with the 70gr TSX.

Guys are already having a hard time with where to find space for mags, radios, grenades, smokes, new electronics, and other mission essential items that are carried on the fighting load.

Now you want to enlarge the mag pouches, while adding weight per cartridge? Never going to happen.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - Got Patton? - 12-24-2015

I have a question to you guys that served. I know this post is about ammo, but what about the AR/M4 platform itself? Of course we all know about the ongoing articles and criticism about this platform being unreliable. From what I've heard, this debate has been brought to Congress. From what I understand, the debate is about too many soldiers being killed trying to repair their weapons during a firefight. I'm not talking about the Vietnam area. So, if this is true... Is there a debate in the military about changing to a more reliable platform?

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - LRRPF52 - 12-24-2015

Got Patton? Wrote:I have a question to you guys that served. I know this post is about ammo, but what about the AR/M4 platform itself? Of course we all know about the ongoing articles and criticism about this platform being unreliable. From what I've heard, this debate has been brought to congress. From what I understand, the debate is about too many soldiers being killed trying to repair their weapons during a firefight. I'm not talking about the Vietnam area. So, if this is true... Is there a debate in the military about changing to a more reliable platform?

It's BS propagated by the presstiutes who know nothing about firearms, and run with the rabid statements made by Generals like Scales who seem to be competing for the "Who can be the most incorrect?" award.

Of all the various assault rifles I've used around the world, spanning the Pacific Theater, Europe, Central America, and Middle East, I have found the AR15/M4 to be without peer.

Try running AK's in a high volume, close quarters marksmanship program, for example. Prepare to shift the course focus to how to maintain and repair COMBLOC garbage.

Look at units in other countries who literally can carry what they want. They almost always choose M4/Colt Commando variants, even if their national service rifle is a totally different type of weapon.

The M4 is the gun to beat across the board, especially looking at reliability, let alone balance, lightweight, ergonomics, maintainability, modularity, streamlining of logistics, and ease of training for support.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-24-2015

LRRPF52 Wrote:Of all the various assault rifles I've used around the world, spanning the Pacific Theater, Europe, Central America, and Middle East, I have found the AR15/M4 to be without peer.

Look at units in other countries who literally can carry what they want. They almost always choose M4/Colt Commando variants, even if their national service rifle is a totally different type of weapon.
The New Zealand military recently selected an AR15-derivative to replace their AUGs.

[COLOR="blue"]The New Zealand government has approved the purchase of the Modular Assault Rifle System-Light (MARS-L) made by US company Lewis Machine & Tool Co (LMT) as the future rifle for its armed forces, Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee announced on 8 December. The New Zealand Defence Forces (NZDF) will spend NZD59 million (USD40 million) on 8,800 new assault rifles and other ancillaries, support, simulation, and training. The MARS-L was selected by all three arms of the NZDF in mid-August from eight contenders following a thorough evaluation that included technical examinations and extensive live firing. The backbone of the system is LMT's 5.56 mm CQB16 assault rifle.

"This weapon has excellent performance and was preferred by personnel. Perhaps the strongest endorsement is that our own special forces will also use the LMT. They observed the trials carefully and liked what they saw," Brownlee said.

The new rifle system is expected to be introduced into service by 2016-17 and is to replace the 5.56 mm Steyr IW (AUG A1) rifle introduced in 1987.[/COLOR]

http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/?msg=6346.59

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - LRRPF52 - 12-24-2015

New Zealand SAS has been using Colt Commandos and M4's for many decades. Same with Australian SASR, British SBS, SAS, Danes, Norwegians, French LRRPS are using them, most of the Eastern European nations dumped their garbage AK's in favor of M4's. I lost track of everybody that's using them.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - Lightning8 - 12-25-2015

I carried some version of the M16/M4 family since 1981 until I retired in July. Never had an issue with a M16/M4 that was maintained and lubricated. Unfortunately, I never saw any of the magic "bullets" including 77 OTM and certainly never a Barnes 70TSX though. Always 55 FMJ M193 and later the 62 FMJ M855. Issued and carried M855 overseas in 2005-6. See no use in piston ARs either unless you are using some exotic SBR with a suppressor.

Couple of points from my 30+ career - 1) 100 lbs of lightweight "stuff" is still 100 lbs; our "light fighters" are loaded awful heavy and 2) there are not that many Soldiers/Marines at the point of the spear engaging the enemy at any one time - we can easily afford to give the Warriors on the tip of the spear the BEST small arms available.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - LRRPF52 - 12-25-2015

Roger that. Everyone I saw shot with M855 was jacked up really bad, or DRT. I have no problems with M855 personally. It works, it's fast, it blows through things, it fragments at close range, and it's fast out of an M4 averaging anywhere from 2880-2950fps, book answer being 2920fps from the 14.5" M4.

Mortars and machineguns do a lot of the work though. By the time it gets down to M4's, you're picking up stragglers.

I've always wanted a 6.5mm LMG, and it looks like LSAT will deliver that in a 12lb package, with ammo that weighs less than 5.56 linked.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-25-2015

LRRPF52 Wrote:I've always wanted a 6.5mm LMG, and it looks like LSAT will deliver that in a 12lb package, with ammo that weighs less than 5.56 linked.
Yes it does. But, the squad automatic weapon and the individual weapon have always been the same caliber. It's a safe bet that if a 6.5mm CTA LMG is fielded, a carbine that fires the same ammo will also be adopted.

So, in the event that cased-telescoped technology does not pan out, I just don't see a Grendel LMG entering service without the carbine also being 6.5 G, despite the drawbacks you've noted.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - sneaky one - 12-26-2015

yawn.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - LRRPF52 - 12-26-2015

stanc Wrote:Yes it does. But, the squad automatic weapon and the individual weapon have always been the same caliber. It's a safe bet that if a 6.5mm CTA LMG is fielded, a carbine that fires the same ammo will also be adopted.

So, in the event that cased-telescoped technology does not pan out, I just don't see a Grendel LMG entering service without the carbine also being 6.5 G, despite the drawbacks you've noted.

Many units have been using the Mk.48 7.62 NATO LMG in place of the SAW, which is obviously a different caliber than everyone else's M4's.

[Image: Defense.gov_News_Photo_110912-F-RN211-16...germen.jpg]

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-26-2015

LRRPF52 Wrote:Many units have been using the Mk.48 7.62 NATO LMG in place of the SAW, which is obviously a different caliber than everyone else's M4's.
Yup. However, it's one thing to field a non-5.56mm LMG when the caliber has long been US/NATO standard, and is in the inventory.

It's something else entirely when it would mean introducing a third rifle/MG cartridge into the system.

The 6mm SAW was rejected in favor of keeping a common caliber for the squad, and IIRC, the US Army's Caliber Configuration Study envisioned a common caliber for carbine, DMR, and SAW.

Is there any evidence which indicates that a third caliber would even be considered for adoption?

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - ah1whiskey - 12-28-2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM214_Microgun

one of these would have been very nice in 6.5G along with a 6.5 SAW.

Does the 6.5 grendel have the potential to replace the 5.56 for the military? - stanc - 12-31-2015

ah1whiskey Wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM214_Microgun

one of these would have been very nice in 6.5G along with a 6.5 SAW.
A 6.5 Gatling would be awesome. But, that's getting quite a ways ahead of ourselves. We don't yet have a belt-fed 6.5 LMG, due in no small part to lack of M27-type links.

Shoot, it's over a decade after introduction of the Grendel cartridge, and we still don't even have a mag-fed 6.5 IAR, although such could be built using COTS components. Sad
[Image: HK-M27-IAR-2.jpg]

Without suitable 6.5 weapons to demo the capabilities, how does anyone hope to interest the military?