VASCAR2 Wrote:I saw an interview with Mr. Eugene Stoner where he commented on the military’s desire for a 30 round magazine. Mr. Stoner said the 20 round mag performed well but since the AK had higher capacity mag our miltary wanted a 30 round mag. When the AR-15/M-16 was adopted I don’t remember anyone complaining because the M-16 magazine was just 20 rounds.

A 6.5 Grendel with a 20 round mag would’ve given a ammunition carry load greater by weight than 7.62x51 but still provide a 20 round capable weapon. Interesting that Serbia is developing of a 6.5x39 aka 6.5 Grendel. Of all the cartridge advancement is interesting Serbia is showing interest in the 6.5x39 for an AK variant.

stanc Wrote:I would just like to see some good, objective testing and evaluation of 6.5 Grendel to assess its capability for infantry use.

It amazes me that no Grendel proponents have ever done such a T&E in order to demonstrate the round's military potential.

LR1955 Wrote:I heard Stoner speak at a Small Arms Symposium in the early 90's. Hate to tell you guys this but he talked about using 100 round drums of 5.56 loaded completely with tracer and training the soldier to use full auto and walk the shots into the enemy. No sights, just tracer. I am sure he was not pushing a 100 round drum and straight tracer. Rather emphasizing a point about getting effective fire on to an enemy quickly and that doesn't need a huge amount of training to accomplish.

He did not seem to be a proponent of going back up in cartridge caliber.

If given a choice of some sort of AK design firing a 6.5 X 39 cartridge and a AR-15 with a C Mag of tracer, guess which one I would choose?

LR1955 Wrote:If the Serbian cartridge is simply a 7.62 X 39 case necked down, it will have quite a bit less case capacity than a Grendel with corresponding lower velocity.

LR1955 Wrote:If it will be any more effective than a 7.62 X 39, it will be due to the bullet design. Who knows what bullet design they will use but it will be a service bullet.

LR1955 Wrote:And they probably won't until they can come up with a bolt that will take what will most certainly be very high pressures found in service loads.

LR1955 Wrote:Also I haven't seen related 6.5 bullets designed for penetrating the types of material found in US testing criteria.

LR1955 Wrote:People tout Serbia as using something less powerful than a Grendel. Serbia is also not a strategic power. They do not project power into places other than Serbia so their equipment designs are focused on their terrain, structures, climate. A 6.5 X 39 is probably a step up from the 80 year old 7.62 X 39 and may be fine for them but I would not accept something Serbia thought was a good idea for their Army unless our people gave it a formal and scientifically grounded series of tests based on our requirements.

VASCAR2 Wrote:The ability to carry more ammo and ease of use will keep the 5.56/223 more popular. For most any civilian use the difference in weight and number of cartridges (6.5G vs 5.56) carried is not as important as it is for the mil.

stanc Wrote:No one knows what pressures USGI 6.5 Grendel ammo would be loaded to. I don't see that being a reason to not evaluate the Grendel as it currently exists, just as a proof of concept.


It would certainly be desirable to have 6.5 Grendel loads with EPR bullets, as are in 5.56 M855A1 and 7.62 M80A1. But, since 6.5 EPR is not available, valid comparative testing could be done using PPU 6.5 FMJ vs 7.62 FMJ and 5.56 FMJ.


I agree that what caliber the Serbian Army opts to use for its small arms is not necessarily relevant to US requirements. However, since our military does project power around the globe, the idea that 6.5 Grendel promises 7.62 performance from machine guns and rifles of 5.56 weight, it seems like the Horde's favorite cartridge would be worth considering...….providing that it can be demonstrated to actually deliver the promised performance.

LR1955 Wrote:Aint going to happen any time soon. The DoD seems perfectly happy with the EPR 7.62 and 5.56.

LR1955 Wrote:Do you actually think that the 6.5 PPU ball garbage will out perform issued M-80 and issued M-855?

LR1955 Wrote:Hasn't this discussion happened in about five other threads?

stanc Wrote:Heh, heh. If they are perfectly happy with those, why did they develop a new 6.8mm projectile?


No. What it would do is permit a comparison of lead-core FMJ performance from all three calibers.


I dunno. Has it?

LR1955 Wrote:I can do the testing but you design the test with one caveat. It will have defined standards and if any of the cartridges fail any of the tests, it will be considered as FAILING that test.

LR1955 Wrote:What is it you are looking for specifically?

LR1955 Wrote:Who knows, I may just do it and also get a 6.8 upper and also shoot what ever bullet you think is comparable.

VASCAR2 Wrote:If your serious about doing this test I just checked and I have 60 rounds of the PPU 6.5 Grendel 110 grain FMJ left. I never traded it in after the recall.