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Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 12-31-2019
lazyengineer Wrote:Main lesson: A CHL left in the car is useless.I don't see that lesson in this incident. There were more than enough churchgoers with guns on them.
There were some important lessons, though. A couple that come to mind:
- It's suicidal to draw on a man who is aiming a shotgun at you, especially when your draw is as slow as a snail.
- Being armed does not protect you from the bad guy's bullets. If you're planning to be in a gunfight, wear body armor!
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - Klem - 12-31-2019
Stan,
Don't fight it, just let it wash over you like a warm glow... Take off the body armour and pick up the blaster young Skywalker. Come over to the Dark Side. You know you want to...
.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - LR1955 - 12-31-2019
stanc Wrote:I don't see that lesson in this incident. There were more than enough churchgoers with guns on them.
There were some important lessons, though. A couple that come to mind:
- It's suicidal to draw on a man who is aiming a shotgun at you, especially when your draw is as slow as a snail.
- Being armed does not protect you from the bad guy's bullets. If you're planning to be in a gunfight, wear body armor!
Yo Stan:
You can wear the body armor and hope you don't get shot before someone else stops the killer.
I will carry a firearm and defend myself.
This incident is very simple. Armed citizens defended themselves when the police were not there. The killer was shot and killed before he could kill anyone else.
LR55
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - lazyengineer - 12-31-2019
nawagner Wrote:Has it been confirmed the first guy shot was indeed armed and pulling a gun? I thought that at first but then as mentioned by lazyengineer it might have been a robbery and he was grabbing his wallet.Probably not going for his wallet - if a robbery, he was going for the plate.
New details from perps sister suggest this was likely a suicide by cop or suicide by mass shooting event after all. I'm guessing, likely mass shooting now after all, since there were no cops there.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - VASCAR2 - 12-31-2019
The key point is even though the Church had taken security into account a person is still not expecting anything to happen. Just because the perp displayed a shotgun in church might not give security or other armed person the right to engage him. Once the first person was shot I think it all ended as fast as humanly possible given the people responding. Regrettable that innocent people died and people have to go through this ordeal.
You just never know when or where evil will strike. I have always carried to church and basically anywhere I’m not prohibited because you just never know. The people intent on doing harm are law breakers and no law in the world will stop them if they have the intent to harm others.
Very rarely does a person who goes through the requirements to get a concealed carry permit run afoul and commit forceable felonies.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - montana - 12-31-2019
VASCAR2 Wrote:The key point is even though the Church had taken security into account a person is still not expecting anything to happen. Just because the perp displayed a shotgun in church might not give security or other armed person the right to engage him. Once the first person was shot I think it all ended as fast as humanly possible given the people responding. Regrettable that innocent people died and people have to go through this ordeal.
You just never know when or where evil will strike. I have always carried to church and basically anywhere I’m not prohibited because you just never know. The people intent on doing harm are law breakers and no law in the world will stop them if they have the intent to harm others.
Very rarely does a person who goes through the requirements to get a concealed carry permit run afoul and commit forceable felonies.
Like Jack Wilson stated, people can only be responsive to evil. This is an absolute disadvantage,"action is always faster than reaction" in any confrontation. It is just a reality when confronting evil. They shut it down in 6 seconds and did an outstanding job in my opinion. Imagine the mayhem that could have occurred, "in the time it would have taken" for the police to arrive.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - lazyengineer - 12-31-2019
VASCAR2 Wrote:The key point is even though the Church had taken security into account a person is still not expecting anything to happen. Just because the perp displayed a shotgun in church might not give security or other armed person the right to engage him. Once the first person was shot I think it all ended as fast as humanly possible given the people responding. Regrettable that innocent people died and people have to go through this ordeal.
You just never know when or where evil will strike. I have always carried to church and basically anywhere I’m not prohibited because you just never know. The people intent on doing harm are law breakers and no law in the world will stop them if they have the intent to harm others.
Very rarely does a person who goes through the requirements to get a concealed carry permit run afoul and commit forceable felonies.
"I saw a weapon and feared for my safety"
Rule of thumb from "street robberies and you": when you see a weapon - you shoot. Obviously this is somewhat situational, and a pocket knife in church is not the same as cold-stranger on a dark night approaching you with one menacingly. But the point is, when a man draws a shotgun from under his coat in church, and holding like he means to; it's time to shoot.
I found this one of the most informative and useful reads on personal defense, that I've ever read:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics/5-1285487/
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 12-31-2019
stanc Wrote:Being armed does not protect you from the bad guy's bullets. If you're planning to be in a gunfight, wear body armor!
Klem Wrote:Stan, Don't fight it, just let it wash over you like a warm glow... Take off the body armour and pick up the blaster young Skywalker. Come over to the Dark Side. You know you want to...
LR1955 Wrote:Yo Stan: You can wear the body armor and hope you don't get shot before someone else stops the killer.Uh, guys -- I did not say wear body armor INSTEAD of carrying a gun...
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 12-31-2019
VASCAR2 Wrote:Just because the perp displayed a shotgun in church might not give security or other armed person the right to engage him.
lazyengineer Wrote:...when a man draws a shotgun from under his coat in church, and holding like he means to; it's time to shoot.Indeed.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - Double Naught Spy - 12-31-2019
Geez. First guy killed had a terribly slow and convoluted draw and was killed. A 4 second SOB (it appeared) draw did him no favors.
The armed security guard isn't just some citizen. He holds LEO credentials, owned a gun range, and was a firearms instructor.
Lots of people in the congregation had guns. None of the other people acted in time. Most acted long after the shooting ceased.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - montana - 12-31-2019
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Geez. First guy killed had a terribly slow and convoluted draw and was killed. A 4 second SOB (it appeared) draw did him no favors.
The armed security guard isn't just some citizen. He holds LEO credentials, owned a gun range, and was a firearms instructor.
Lots of people in the congregation had guns. None of the other people acted in time. Most acted long after the shooting ceased.
Which proves people should put priority into training. A person who shoots thousands of rounds every year will be much more effective than those who don't. A person with a history in law enforcement, doesn't mean efficacy with a firearm. Some agencies are better than others, as I have witnessed numerous times in competition and training. The gun community is guilty of down playing necessary training at times and should be addressed. The volunteer security detail for the church was trained by Jack Wilson who put down the gunman. Cases like this are valuable for future training of any security detail and those deciding to conceal carry. That said, "not all people will react to a life or death situation the same way" no matter how much training they have. People in combat has proven this over and over. In any case, "the worst case scenario is a mad man with a gun" surrounded by incapable people with no means to defend themselves.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - FLshooter - 12-31-2019
montana Wrote:Which proves people should put priority into training. A person who shoots thousands of rounds every year will be much more effective than those who don't. A person with a history in law enforcement, doesn't mean efficacy with a firearm. Some agencies are better than others, as I have witnessed numerous times in competition and training. The gun community is guilty of down playing necessary training at times and should be addressed. The volunteer security detail for the church was trained by Jack Wilson who put down the gunman. Cases like this are valuable for future training of any security detail and those deciding to conceal carry. That said, "not all people will react to a life or death situation the same way" no matter how much training they have. People in combat has proven this over and over. In any case, "the worst case scenario is a mad man with a gun" surrounded by incapable people with no means to defend themselves.If you carry a CCW,you should know how to use it. And even if you know how to use it there's no telling how you would react the first time you were in an active shooter situation.
They are lucky that a trained ex LEO was there to take care of business or this situation could've ended with a lot more innocent casualties.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - BluntForceTrauma - 12-31-2019
lazyengineer Wrote:https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics/5-1285487/
Thank you very much for that. Great read!
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - montana - 12-31-2019
FLshooter Wrote:If you carry a CCW,you should know how to use it.And even if you know how to use it there?s no telling how you would react the first time you were in an active shooter situation.
They are lucky that a trained ex LEO was there to take care of business or this situation could?ve ended with a lot more innocent casualties.
I have trained and competed with law enforcement and they are no better or worse than the others I have competed and trained with. I'm not down playing law enforcement at all, since I have been connected to them for most of my life. Many of my friends are law enforcement and would whole heatedly agree with me. They are human like the rest of us with strengths and weaknesses we all have. There are good and bad people in law enforcement, as in any sub section of society.https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/detective-confronts-review-board-member-after-being-fired-for-domestic-violence-101-sk3V3USDoF7RA3HAyQ?fbclid=IwAR3z0xthpxBHcM0_ObYrFEDx6DLU9hWZARwHLBOcB_M8kF5LNmaqRmvuNtg My remarks are not to degrade law enforcement at all since they are the first to be thrown under a bus for convenient political reasons. It can be an impossible job at times with few rewards.https://taphaps.com/dayton-smith-bites-cop/ The attitude they possess some special ability over well trained civilians is not being quite honest. Many law enforcement personnel today are being trained by civilian shooters. My point was training and more training is critical, if one is going to carry conceal and take on the role of a security detail. I have witnessed both civilian and law enforcement shooters who's egos were deflated when put to the test in competition. The church was lucky to have a well trained firearm instructor to help train their security detail and had the opportunity to stop the shooter.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - FLshooter - 12-31-2019
montana Wrote:The church was lucky to have a well trained firearm instructor to help train their security detail and had the opportunity to stop the shooter.I Agree!
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - Klem - 12-31-2019
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Geez. First guy killed had a terribly slow and convoluted draw and was killed. A 4 second SOB (it appeared) draw did him no favors.
The armed security guard isn't just some citizen. He holds LEO credentials, owned a gun range, and was a firearms instructor.
Lots of people in the congregation had guns. None of the other people acted in time. Most acted long after the shooting ceased.
Not everyone has it in them to kill.
I knew a guy once who is still in the security industry and even went to Iraq as a private contractor. Luckily for him and his teammates he was never in a firefight. Turns out the reason he was so good on the range yet so bad when hunting animals back home is that he is not who he represents himself to be. In other words, a con artist. Then there are others who willingly admit they like to eat meat but not harvest it.
Not everyone has the mindset of a predator and the first victim might have been in denial, or was hoping it was all a dream that someone else near him would help sort out. Or perhaps he was just a bit slower than others in working up the mindset to kill. Sure, they knew something was not right with this stranger but it's usually solved with quietly escorting them outside. When the gun comes out we are talking only seconds. The perp had the mental and physical advantage and the first victim had probably never fired his handgun from the sitting position. Plus, we're all evaluating this from the benefit of hindsight. We know this guy is a murderer from the start of the video. At the time they didn't.
He had the drop on everyone and used it until they stopped him; it was all over in less than 5 seconds. He was fast and the congregation were fast. Unfortunately two innocent people are dead and that sobers me knowing what can happen when you are bound to react.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - montana - 12-31-2019
Another anomaly, "to think about" is having to point a loaded firearm at another human being. A good friend of mine, "I have practised shooting with for many years" joined the police department and had to draw his weapon on another person. He said, it was one of the hardest things he has ever had to do. Very understandable, decades of firearm safety instruction was ingrained in his psyche and it is a very unnatural action for anyone whose learned the proper way to own and use firearms.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - lazyengineer - 01-01-2020
Went to the range today to practice this. Open bay and set up 3 targets scattered in the bay, requiring walking between each one (i.e. don't get too station-comfy). At 15 yards; draw from concealment, get on target, as fast as think can reasonably make a headshot - take it. Usually in maybe 2 seconds from pocket draw to shot. Repeat for 3 targets, having to walk and reposition myself for each one.. Then redo the whole drill with a different gun, and cycle through a few times. I'm Marksman level in IDPA (i.e. competent, but definitely don't stand out).
Ruger LCP: I got around 30% hit rate (maybe)
M&P 9 mm shield: I got closer to >50% hit rate.
P99 9mm in DA mode: I got maybe 70% hit rate (at best, might be inflated).
I got better at is as the drills continued. Suffice to say, that shot was a damned good shot.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - NugginFutz - 01-01-2020
Klem Wrote:Not everyone has it in them to kill.Exactly, which is why people should understand why being "armed" does not equate to being "safe from harm". If you aren't prepared to take a life and face a jury of your peers, don't carry a firearm.
Klem Wrote:Not everyone has the mindset of a predator and the first victim might have been in denial, or was hoping it was all a dream that someone else near him would help sort out.I can't get into the mindset of the deceased, but I can attest to the "surreal" factor coming into play during traumatic events. In my own case, I vividly remember a sense of detachment while hurtling through the air at 60 mph. That is, until I went tumbling down the hillside. End of feeling detachment, begin feeling pain.
Klem Wrote:Or perhaps he was just a bit slower than others in working up the mindset to kill. Sure, they knew something was not right with this stranger but it's usually solved with quietly escorting them outside.
I know several people who either have LE backgrounds or are involved in protective services. Where the subject has come up, about half indicated that the moment they had a perp in their front sight and the shot was about to break, they were still processing ways to avoid the need to fire that shot.
Klem Wrote:When the gun comes out we are talking only seconds. The perp had the mental and physical advantage and the first victim had probably never fired his handgun from the sitting position. Plus, we're all evaluating this from the benefit of hindsight. We know this guy is a murderer from the start of the video. At the time they didn't.
He had the drop on everyone and used it until they stopped him; it was all over in less than 5 seconds. He was fast and the congregation were fast.
Exactly - Defenders #1 & #2 saw it unfold but were in reaction mode - the gunman already had won the encounter before the first shot simply by having the drop on them. Virtually everyone else was reacting to the events which, first, needed analysis and, second, needed physical response time. Given the time from the first shot to the last, I'd say the security team did exceptionally well.
Klem Wrote:Unfortunately two innocent people are dead and that sobers me knowing what can happen when you are bound to react.This goes back to what others have said; "Training is key to success in such situations." In my mind, you need to know when it really is time to shoot as early as possible and commit. It could very well mean the difference between life and death.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - Double Naught Spy - 01-01-2020
montana Wrote:Which proves people should put priority into training. A person who shoots thousands of rounds every year will be much more effective than those who don't. A person with a history in law enforcement, doesn't mean efficacy with a firearm. Some agencies are better than others, as I have witnessed numerous times in competition and training. The gun community is guilty of down playing necessary training at times and should be addressed. The volunteer security detail for the church was trained by Jack Wilson who put down the gunman. Cases like this are valuable for future training of any security detail and those deciding to conceal carry. That said, "not all people will react to a life or death situation the same way" no matter how much training they have. People in combat has proven this over and over. In any case, "the worst case scenario is a mad man with a gun" surrounded by incapable people with no means to defend themselves.
Oh, training is most definitely something people should do, no doubt about it. But in this case, it also proves that this was not Pa Kettle, ordinary private citizen congregation member that just happens to have an LTC which is what a lot of the gun community is trying to play up. Jack Wilson is on the exception end of the scale by comparison. In fact, Jack Wilson is a current TCOLE (Texas Commission on Law Enforcement) instructor. He not only teaches private citizens, but teaches law enforcement.