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Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - LRRPF52 - 01-01-2020
Klem Wrote:Why do the clothes the person who shot the assailant make any difference to your pro, or anti-gun argument?
What do you think the OP is saying? - He hasn't posted a single word.
What on earth are you trying to say?
It doesn't matter. No matter what the story is or any post regarding 2A, Stan will pop in and find a canard to make an argument directly in contradiction to the OP's headline.
The premise for the subtractively-argumentative position on this one is that since the uniformed security was wearing a uniform, then the OP's "Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church" is invalid.
How much time did the first concealed carrier buy to help stop the animal from shooting more people?
Enough for the security guard to make a headshot on the scum-sucking dirtbag and blast his brain matter all over the wall, and go down DRT.
Even though the CCW took one for the team, he provided enough time for the security guard to end it quickly and prevent what could have been a significant body count.
CCW doesn't always mean you live, but that you minimize the loss of life among the innocent.
So to me, from everything I'm seeing about the story, an armed CCW carrier absolutely did help contribute to stopping a mass murder, even if they died in the process.
To jump into it and immediately knee-jerk into typical default arguments for argument's sake and pick apart the OP's thread title seems to have been done in haste, and further contributes to stirring up animosity among the forum.
Happy New Year...
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - FLshooter - 01-01-2020
Klem Wrote:Not everyone has it in them to kill.
Very true Klem.In the 80?s I was mandated to group therapy after having to use deadly force,as a clerk in dads liqueur shop.There was a cute 18-year-old girl in the class.Being I was the same age ,everyone else was much older. I was drawn to her and we became friends.
Everyone in the group was a victim who fought back .This girl could not kill a fly. This girl was in a position to save herself from harm but allow the perpetrator to take the gun out of her hand,beat her and do other horrible things to her. She was lucky to be alive. The situation damaged her for life,to this day!But over and over she told me that she would allow someone to kill her before she would kill them.And the chick isn?t a coward either. She just has a view that I can?t understand.
I?ve also gone with several different people hunting during the years. I know a couple folks who are great shots at the range but when presented with the perfect kill shot in the field they froze up and couldn?t do it. different strokes I guess.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - PNWTargets - 01-01-2020
The phrase train like you fight and fight like you train is something I do everyday. It seems peoples awareness level of threats are getting better, even if it is only done by discussions. I train everyday to increase my odds of stopping threats when needed.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - LRRPF52 - 01-01-2020
There's a reason why meat-eater units do high volume training on human silhouette targets, and realistic human pictures, mannequins, and reward soldiers for better performance doing those tasks.
It's one thing to shoot at a bullseye, and another to shoot at something representing another human being.
Because of our fairytale society where we don't see death, real poverty, rampant disease, and the reality that used to be common throughout the world, we are insulated from the harsher things of life, including the necessity to provide a survival posture against animal and human predators.
When you become part of a team that focuses on hunting down other people as your primary job description and train for that in a military context, those barriers are quickly broken down with the understanding that rules of land warfare make uniformed combatants and insurgents fair game, but still with the ROE restrictions of minimizing or preventing collateral effects on civilians.
I felt something change within me when we started to do more Close Quarters Marksmanship training vs the standard Army Rifle Qualification training, which involved distances of 50-300m. With CQM, everything was up-close and personal, with human sils or FBI B27 TGTs 5-15yds in front of you.
When you get used to burning 300-1100rds per day through a carbine or pistol at those TGTs, with focus on accuracy and speed, it bypasses most of that natural barrier to killing. It takes an emotionally and mentally stable person to know when to flip that switch and when to refrain from the escalation of lethal violence that is now possible with that type of training.
This is one of the main things I focus on in my CCW courses, where I introduce the effects of violence and imminent danger, rather than a sanitary, clean range where you take your time and train as if you have a lot of time to prepare for making your shots. Balancing the evolution of a shooter from beginner level to quickly drawing and shooting while maintaining the sense of danger is something I find missing from most CCW training. I've seen some real amateur companies and instructors try to do it, and do a horrible/unsafe job of it, but their intent was geared towards what I'm talking about. Because of a lack of safety management and basic firearms skills, they are unable to do it safe and well.
On the other side, most reputable instructors don't tackle it because they want to focus on the fundamentals before getting students up to speed, so they throw the element of danger or a threat out the window, or give it lip service without replicating some of the physiological effects you go through in an actual life-or-death encounter.
Some of you who have been to my CCW Applied Violence courses know exactly what I am talking about.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - montana - 01-01-2020
NugginFutz Wrote:Exactly, which is why people should understand why being "armed" does not equate to being "safe from harm". If you aren't prepared to take a life and face a jury of your peers, don't carry a firearm.
This is so true. If you use a firearm for self defence, you will more than likely be sued in civil court. That is, if you are not also charged in a criminal court. The reality is bankruptcy for most people. Training for concealed carry has to cover all aspects and implications involved, not just gun handling and tactics. One of my best friends from high school, "pulled a young man over on a remote stretch of highway" for robbing a bank with a semi auto AK. The young man jumped out and sprayed his patrol car with gun fire. My friend returned fire, "reloaded and fired again" killing the perp. He was obviously cleared of any wrong doing, but was later sued by the perp"s family in civil court. He obviously won that case too, but at great expense. Taking another persons life will have life long social and emotional consequences. Carrying concealed is not a decision to be taken lightly. Law enforcement is no exception.https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/video-released-of-now-indicted-cop-taking-out-active-shooter-cdifsUgrPk6tp-dCbRkU1w?fbclid=IwAR0g_7EgfqDsn3eN-4NXP8VshrQEVssd6nryWOD7syz4QjzYZdo8_zR6XpM
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - PNWTargets - 01-01-2020
Montana is right about the possible problems a responsible citizen with a firearm can go through. The minute you engage with a firearm is the minute any Federal, State, and or Civil law system is involved. Embracing the second amendment is a lot of responsibility.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 01-01-2020
LRRPF52 Wrote:It doesn't matter. No matter what the story is or any post regarding 2A, Stan will pop in and find a canard to make an argument directly in contradiction to the OP's headline.That is simply untrue, as can be seen in four of the five threads which were started in the month of December.
I only note contradictions when the OP's thread title and/or post content seem contradicted by his linked story.
LRRPF52 Wrote:The premise for the subtractively-argumentative position on this one is that since the uniformed security was wearing a uniform, then the OP's "Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church" is invalid.No, the premise for my position was not because the security guard was (or at least he appeared to be) wearing a uniform.
It was because the security guard appeared to not be carrying concealed. He had what I took to be a holster on his right hip.
LRRPF52 Wrote:How much time did the first concealed carrier buy to help stop the animal from shooting more people?That may or may not be true. We do not know what would have happened if the CCW had not drawn his weapon.
Enough for the security guard to make a headshot on the scum-sucking dirtbag and blast his brain matter all over the wall, and go down DRT.
Even though the CCW took one for the team, he provided enough time for the security guard to end it quickly and prevent what could have been a significant body count.
LRRPF52 Wrote:CCW doesn't always mean you live, but that you minimize the loss of life among the innocent.From what I'm seeing about the story, the CCW may actually have triggered the shooting. The act of drawing his pistol escalated the situation and made him a threat to the gunman, whose original intent may have been robbery or intimidation, not murder.
So to me, from everything I'm seeing about the story, an armed CCW carrier absolutely did help contribute to stopping a mass murder, even if they died in the process.
Quote:Kinnunen visited the congregation several other times this year and was given food, the minister said. "We've helped him on several occasions with food," Farmer said in the interview. "He gets mad when we won't give him cash." https://time.com/5757243/texas-church-shooter-motive/
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - JASmith - 01-01-2020
Stan,
We all agree that you are entitled to your opinion.
On the other hand, you seem to live in a different world than the rest of us.
The video shows the perp with shotgun out and pointed a the parishioner, who then went into the crouch position anfd then the first shot broke.
There is no way one can validly claim from that video that the CCW holder initiated the exchange.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - Klem - 01-01-2020
stanc Wrote:We do not know what would have happened if the CCW had not drawn his weapon.
I think we can at least agree it would have been a situation of deprivation of liberty with explicit or implied threats of violence. In hindsight we also know the perp had no moral self-restraint. These parishioners had previously agreed they were not going to be intimidated or threatened and defending themselves with equal force is their strategy. They were exercising their right to self defense and dignity. A tragic result when exercising a human right does not make exercising it, wrong. What the perp did was wrong. In hindsight was it the right decision? We still don't know what he would have done if they were unarmed, and that includes you. Suggesting they should have done this or that is moot.
stanc Wrote:From what I'm seeing about the story, the CCW may actually have triggered the shooting. The act of drawing his pistol escalated the situation and made him a threat to the gunman, whose original intent may have been robbery or intimidation, not murder.
Yes, it might have ended without tragedy if the first victim had not gone for his gun. Or it might have been a calculated bloodbath like the recent Christchurch mosque shooting (where all the victims were unarmed). Which one?
If, as you imply the congregation brought it on themselves by attending church with firearms then what guarantees of safety can you give if they were unarmed? Any equivocation or lack of certainty, or hope in your answer is likely to be unacceptable to those who are actually in the firing line. If nobody except the perp knows what he will do, or not do with his gun you can't blame the victims for assuming the worst and/or exercising their right to self-defense.
Stop blaming the victims to suit an anti-gun narrative - Regardless of how a victim reacts, they are never to blame.
Stan,
On a related matter, I don't appreciate your anti-gun rhetoric on this forum. You have gone to some effort over the years to conceal it but it leaks out and in this discussion is obvious.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - phishfood - 01-02-2020
LRRPF52 Wrote:It doesn't matter. No matter what the story is or any post regarding 2A, Stan will pop in and find a canard to make an argument directly in contradiction to the OP's headline.
The premise for the subtractively-argumentative position on this one is that since the uniformed security was wearing a uniform, then the OP's "Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church" is invalid.
How much time did the first concealed carrier buy to help stop the animal from shooting more people?
Enough for the security guard to make a headshot on the scum-sucking dirtbag and blast his brain matter all over the wall, and go down DRT.
Even though the CCW took one for the team, he provided enough time for the security guard to end it quickly and prevent what could have been a significant body count.
CCW doesn't always mean you live, but that you minimize the loss of life among the innocent.
So to me, from everything I'm seeing about the story, an armed CCW carrier absolutely did help contribute to stopping a mass murder, even if they died in the process.
To jump into it and immediately knee-jerk into typical default arguments for argument's sake and pick apart the OP's thread title seems to have been done in haste, and further contributes to stirring up animosity among the forum.
Happy New Year...
That, in and of itself, is worthy of it's own independent "Thanks" button.
Except for the point that what I have read on it, the defender did not necessarily wear a uniform. Not that it makes any difference one way or the other.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - montana - 01-02-2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG4MHuuh3g&feature=em-uploademail Pretty well sums it up.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 01-02-2020
JASmith Wrote:Stan, We all agree that you are entitled to your opinion.Nah. Same world, Joe. I just think differently than most folks. I analyze things logically instead of giving knee-jerk, emotional reactions.
On the other hand, you seem to live in a different world than the rest of us.
JASmith Wrote:The video shows the perp with shotgun out and pointed a the parishioner, who then went into the crouch position anfd then the first shot broke.Your description is inaccurate. The perp pulled out his shotgun and pointed it at the apparently unarmed parishioner. At that moment, an armed security guard who was sitting a few feet away, stood up and drew his pistol. Before he could bring it to bear on the target, he was shot.
JASmith Wrote:There is no way one can validly claim from that video that the CCW holder initiated the exchange.That's different than what I said.
Klem Wrote:Do you not consider it wrong to needlessly get oneself and another innocent person killed?stanc Wrote:We do not know what would have happened if the CCW had not drawn his weapon.I think we can at least agree it would have been a situation of deprivation of liberty with explicit or implied threats of violence. In hindsight we also know the perp had no moral self-restraint. These parishioners had previously agreed they were not going to be intimidated or threatened and defending themselves with equal force is their strategy. They were exercising their right to self defense and dignity. A tragic result when exercising a human right does not make exercising it, wrong.
Klem Wrote:I'd say more likely the former than the latter, all things considered.stanc Wrote:From what I'm seeing about the story, the CCW may actually have triggered the shooting. The act of drawing his pistol escalated the situation and made him a threat to the gunman, whose original intent may have been robbery or intimidation, not murder.Yes, it might have ended without tragedy if the first victim had not gone for his gun. Or it might have been a calculated bloodbath like the recent Christchurch mosque shooting (where all the victims were unarmed). Which one?
- The perp did not start shooting until the CCW drew his weapon and became a lethal threat to the gunman.
- After shooting the two victims, the perp stopped shooting and started running away, instead of shooting more churchgoers.
- The perp had a shotgun with a 4-round or maybe 5-round magazine, and I've seen no reports that he had any spare ammo.
Klem Wrote:If, as you imply the congregation brought it on themselves by attending church with firearms...I implied no such thing, and it's dishonest of you to say that I did.
Klem Wrote:If nobody except the perp knows what he will do, or not do with his gun you can't blame the victims for assuming the worst and/or exercising their right to self-defense.Everyone is responsible for their own actions, including victims.
Regardless of how a victim reacts, they are never to blame.
Klem Wrote:Stop blaming the victims to suit an anti-gun narrativeStop falsely accusing me of saying things that I didn't say. I have not blamed the victims to suit an anti-gun narrative.
Klem Wrote:Stan, On a related matter, I don't appreciate your anti-gun rhetoric on this forum. You have gone to some effort over the years to conceal it but it leaks out and in this discussion is obvious.I have never engaged in anti-gun rhetoric. For some unfathomable reason, you habitually misperceive or misconstrue my remarks. If I say A + B = C, you invariably see it as D - E = F.
phishfood Wrote:Except for the point that what I have read on it, the defender did not necessarily wear a uniform. Not that it makes any difference one way or the other.I agree. I used the phrase "uniformed security guard" solely to describe the individual. I did not say that wearing a uniform made the thread title invalid.
montana Wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG4MHuuh3g&feature=em-uploademail Pretty well sums it up.Doesn't exaggerate much, does he.
Colion Noir Wrote:...the church member saved over 200 lives by using his personal handgun to shoot and kill the killer...
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - FLshooter - 01-02-2020
![[Image: quote_icon.png]](http://www.65grendel.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png){kind=icon}
Originally Posted by stancFrom what I'm seeing about the story, the CCW may actually have triggered the shooting. The act of drawing his pistol escalated the situation and made him a threat to the gunman, whose original intent may have been robbery or intimidation, not murder.
I cannot agree with that.And if you are a thinking man,you know that can’t be true.
The CCW holder who went for his gun was clearly the hero.That psycho was going to shoot into the crowded part of the church.Because he certainly didn’t pull out that shotgun to whistle Dixie!All signs point to the fact he was there to commit a mass shooting.The CCW holder saw what was happening and sacrificed his life to save many others.
And I am not jumping on the band wagon either.No other way to perceive this.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - JASmith - 01-02-2020
Once again, Stan’s anti-gun rhetoric, inability to accept other’s opinions, and obsession with having the last word will cause another 2A thread to be locked.
I am sure that he will provide “examples” refuting every observation in the first sentence, and this will only prove the points made there.
Is this behavior really good for this forum?
Can we imagine much better would things be if Stan could make his often valuable counter-observations snd then allow other’s refutation to be given equal space without “Stan proving that he right all along” by using out of context quotes, etc.?
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - montana - 01-02-2020
JASmith Wrote:Once again, Stan’s anti-gun rhetoric, inability to accept other’s opinions, and obsession with having the last word will cause another 2A thread to be locked.
I am sure that he will provide “examples” refuting every observation in the first sentence, and this will only prove the points made there.
Is this behavior really good for this forum?
Can we imagine much better would things be if Stan could make his often valuable counter-observations snd then allow other’s refutation to be given equal space without “Stan proving that he right all along” by using out of context quotes, etc.?
JAYSM try to understand , Stan is the only one that has the ability to think clearly and logically, we are only capable of knee-jerk emotional reactions. We do not have the incredible insight to understand what our own eyes see. Like clock work, we constantly embarrass our selves by miss interpreting life's events. The incredible way he knows exactly what the perp or victim was thinking. It is like he is psychic. I know it is unbelievable but true!
I understand, It can be painful for many of us, "but a necessity" if we are to grow. Though he is falsely accused over and over, he martyrs on for the sake of this forum. He has been a stanch defender of the 2ndA, "yet continually gets accused of being anti-gun" a tragedy beyond words. I for one appreciate Stan, "for I know in my heart of hearts" he struggles on for the betterment of us all.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 01-02-2020
FLshooter Wrote:If he was there to commit a mass shooting, why did he not start shooting until the CCW drew his weapon? Why didn't he just stand up and empty his gun into the congregation?stanc Wrote:From what I'm seeing about the story, the CCW may actually have triggered the shooting. The act of drawing his pistol escalated the situation and made him a threat to the gunman, whose original intent may have been robbery or intimidation, not murder.I cannot agree with that.And if you are a thinking man,you know that can?t be true.
The CCW holder who went for his gun was clearly the hero.That psycho was going to shoot into the crowded part of the church.Because he certainly didn?t pull out that shotgun to whistle Dixie!All signs point to the fact he was there to commit a mass shooting.
If he was there to commit a mass shooting, why -- after shooting the two victims -- did the perp stop shooting and started running away, instead of shooting more churchgoers?
FLshooter Wrote:The CCW holder saw what was happening and sacrificed his life to save many others.If the CCW had not drawn his weapon, he and the other parishioner might not have been killed.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 01-02-2020
JASmith Wrote:Once again, Stan’s anti-gun rhetoric...What anti-gun rhetoric?
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 01-02-2020
montana Wrote:JAYSM try to understand , Stan is the only one that has the ability to think clearly and logically, we are only capable of knee-jerk emotional reactions.Well, that is what you often do. This thread is a good example. Good guy kills bad guy, and your emotional reflex is to automatically see it as "good guy stops mass shooting" even though you don't know if a mass shooting had actually been stopped.
And, you completely ignore -- or fail to see -- possibilities that are contrary to your narrative, such as the idea (which even Klem agreed could be the case) that the perp in this incident may have been in the church to intimidate or rob people, and might not have shot anyone if the CCW hadn't drawn his gun.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - FLshooter - 01-02-2020
stanc Wrote:Well, that is what you often do. This thread is a good example. Good guy kills bad guy, and your emotional reflex is to automatically see it as "good guy stops mass shooting" even though you don't know if a mass shooting had actually been stopped.
And, you completely ignore -- or fail to see -- possibilities that are contrary to your narrative, such as the idea (which even Klem agreed could be the case) that the perp in this incident may have been in the church to intimidate or rob people, and might not have shot anyone if the CCW hadn't drawn his gun.
A you for real?
Anytime someone pulls out a gun in public they are a threat to life and must be stopped end of story.
Concealed Carry Stops Mass Shooting in Church - stanc - 01-02-2020
FLshooter Wrote:Anytime someone pulls out a gun in public they are a threat to life and must be stopped...I agree. I don't know how you think that relates to the post of mine you responded to, but I agree with your statement.