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AR 15 Armorers Course - CJW - 06-18-2022
Great Unwashed,
I want to learn more about the AR platform. Ive built lowers and uppers that have shot well, but it has really been a hell of a struggle for me.
My lowers look as if they have been put together with a 2 lb claw hammer, a bench grinder & JB Weld.
Its time for me to really learn to do it right, what tools to buy, best components to buy etc.
YouTube has been a great help but I need hands on training.
Basically this is what I want to do, I want to show up with a box of parts and walk away with a new AR & every tool that the pros use to do the job.
Can you recommend a school for me?
Live Big,
Chuck
AR 15 Armorers Course - Csitt - 06-18-2022
My FFL guy just went the The School of the American Rifle and loved it. Been thinking of taking a course myself
Chuck S
AR 15 Armorers Course - montana - 06-18-2022
School of the American rifle can be very hard to enroll in as the demand is very high for any quality armorers courses.
SOLGW has an excellent armorers course.. https://sonsoflibertygw.com/armorers-training/ high.
I would recommend reading the TM 9 Army manual https://www.amazon.com/dp/1981303421?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details and Chris Bartocci's armorers manual.https://www.amazon.com/Armorers-Manual-AR15-Family-Weapons/dp/1520470800 These are both excellent sources of information to build a quality rifle...
AR 15 Armorers Course - Double Naught Spy - 06-18-2022
This isn't what you are asking for, but the best suggestion I have to offer.
I have had courses with Sully at Defensive Edge, twice. Why twice? The first time was to learn things and the 2nd time I took it with a buddy and to relearn what I had forgotten. I don't take apart my AR15s with much regularity, only when something breaks or stops functioning.
https://www.thedefensiveedge.com/category_s/84.htm
I thought the course was just fine. Sully was an excellent instructor, patient and helpful, but the course wasn't a builder's course. It was a break down your AR15 and put it back together course, fixing whatever was broken along the way. People lost/dropped springs and pins and such and Sully had the parts to replace them. A couple of us had guns that didn't work right due to broken parts and he had the spares to fix them. You come away with some decent knowledge and a really nice manual on how to do things. The best part was learning some proverbial tricks of the trade and how not to screw up certain things. You will learn what tools are necessary, not necessary, and which ones are optional, but a really good idea to have.
I don't see where he has a builder's course, but you might contact him about that, or you might try the armorer's course and then building one on your own.
AR 15 Armorers Course - CJW - 06-18-2022
Csitt, thanks for your recommendation, I am looking at them.
Montana thanks for your help as well, ordered both books . The SOLGW look very interesting.
DNS, Im going to call Sulley Monday.
These suggestions have given me a great place to start.
AR 15 Armorers Course - lazyengineer - 06-19-2022
FWIW, with the AR assembly I find that the only tools you really need are:
Armorers wrench (PSA is my personal favorite actually, for the buffer tube)
A set of cavity-tip punches (for holding and driving in the roll-pins)
A set of ball-tip punches (for driving the roll-pins all the way in)
The correct punches like that will solve a great number of your challenges. They are quite inexpensive, really - get a cheap set, it's fine.
The punches also are useful for putting in the trigger-group, as a guide/hold on one side, while inserting the trigger pins in via the other. And if you have large enough punches, A large one run through the other side of the take-down pin hole can be useful on the front, to help hold the spring and detent in place for then inserting the front take-down pin.
The only big item left to watch out for is the bolt-release pin insertion, where putting down a sticker or piece of paper or such, will prevent the hammer and punch handle from marring the back of the receiver area as you have to work that funny angle to drive the bolt-release retaining roll-pin into place.
That's really about it.
AR 15 Armorers Course - montana - 06-19-2022
lazyengineer Wrote:FWIW, with the AR assembly I find that the only tools you really need are:
Armorers wrench (PSA is my personal favorite actually, for the buffer tube)
A set of cavity-tip punches (for holding and driving in the roll-pins)
A set of ball-tip punches (for driving the roll-pins all the way in)
The correct punches like that will solve a great number of your challenges. They are quite inexpensive, really - get a cheap set, it's fine.
The punches also are useful for putting in the trigger-group, as a guide/hold on one side, while inserting the trigger pins in via the other. And if you have large enough punches, A large one run through the other side of the take-down pin hole can be useful on the front, to help hold the spring and detent in place for then inserting the front take-down pin.
The only big item left to watch out for is the bolt-release pin insertion, where putting down a sticker or piece of paper or such, will prevent the hammer and punch handle from marring the back of the receiver area as you have to work that funny angle to drive the bolt-release retaining roll-pin into place.
That's really about it.
Like everything, we all have our opinions. To build a quality rifle, it is necessary to understand the tolerances and the proper torque value when specified IMO.. A lot of time and money has gone into R&D for the AR platform and it is foolish to ignore such information when it is quite available with a little effort IMO..Stacking tolerances will almost always rear it's ugly head when using parts from different manufacturers.. The better the information,tools and knowledge, the better the rifle IMO..The one necessary tool you forgot was a good vice. I would add many other things like a NcSTAR vise block jig if building a carbine, MI-URR - MI Upper Receiver Rod, torque wrenches in ft lbs and inch lbs.. I prefer the Midwest Industries AR Professional Armorer's Wrench or the Magpul..There are only a few manufacturers I will use for my detents, springs, castle nuts, etc.
It all depends on how much a person wants to invest into their build and knowledge of the platform. Some guys have built AR rifles with the upper between their legs when tightening the barrel nut, while using the cheapest parts available and are completely satisfied with their creation...I have seen procedures being recommended on this forum that makes me wince in pain, "but if the builder is happy with the end result" I won't argue..When a build won't function and the person becomes demoralized thinking of all the time and money they spent on a non functioning rifle, the incentive to learn more usually becomes much stronger...
Here are the basic's Chad from the American rifle recommends for beginners..I didn't post his professional list LOL...
******************BASIC LIST******************
In my opinion these are the basic items for inspection, maintenance, and minor upgrades.
-Brownells Screwdriver (Best) or Wheeler Gunsmith Screwdriver Set (Good)
The Brownells has a lifetime warranty which means if you break a bit, Brownells will replace it
with no questions asked. Using Gunsmith Bits are a MUST if you don't want to hack up you AR,
or your other firearms.
-SAE & Metric Socket Set
-Inch Pound Torque Wrench
I like the Wheeler FAT Wrench (Non Digital). The best prices are usually on Amazon. It does
forward and reverse torque and clicks/breaks when it reaches the setting. These are great for
mounting Rails, Optics, and Gas Key Screws. I own 5 of these and they have held up at myWork Bench and in Classes. Borka and Fix it Sticks are good alternatives, but Wheeler is still
my favorite.
-Cheap Steel & Brass 17pc Punch Set
You can get these from Amazon. The kits come with a Spring Loaded Center Punch which can
be used for Castle Nut Staking, or "Field Staking" the top of the Carrier Key.
-Needle Nose Plier Set
-Tape Measure
For measuring Buffer Springs.
-.080 Weed Eater Line
-4 to 8 Ounce Ball Peen Hammer
You don't want a roofing hammer or a claw hammer. A 4 Ounce Ball Peen is my favorite.
-Harbor Freight Rubber Mallet
Great for moving stubborn parts without damaging the material or finish.
-Harbor Freight Plastic Dead Blow Hammer
Great for moving stubborn parts without damaging the material or finish.
-Small Carbon Steel Washer
For checking parts for Magnetism.
-Digital or Analog Calipers
These are for basic checking of parts and for doing a crude a Firing Pin Protrusion check. You
can buy a budget models but you can't always trust them. In my opinion, it's better to have a
Harbor Freight Caliper than nothing, but if you can afford it a good Mitutoyo will give a lifetime of
reliable service.
-1.4646 Forster 5.56 GO Headspace Gauge (Brownells)
-Feeler Gauge Set
-Obsidian Arms AR15 Punch Set
-Little Crow Gunworks Bolt Catch Tool
-Brownells Magazine Catch Install Tool
-Brownells Chamber Reflector Tool-Starrett 117c (Best) or Mayhew 5/32x4 1/2 punch (Good)
These are for staking the Castle Nut if you don't like using to use Spring Loaded Center Punch
-Pivot Pin Install Tool
You can use an Exacto Knife, Magnet, 1?4" Clevis Pin & Punch, Real Avid Tool, or other
specialized Tools made for this job. The Real Avid is one of the easiest to use and cost
effective.
-M-Guns Gas Tube Bender
-Brownells Gas Tube Wrench/Vise
-Snap Ring Pliers
-Geissele Hammer & Trigger Install Pin Tool
This helps install the AR FCG, but can be used to Oil or Abrasive Lap the bores in an AR Lower
Receiver if they are too small.
-AR General Purpose Brush
-Iosso AR Nylon Brush Set
I don't use bronze or stainless brushes for firearms.
-Rapid Rod (Best) or Steel USGI Sectioned Cleaning Rod (Good)
These are not for regular cleaning. They are great for cleaning in the field and for dislodging a
stuck casing.
-One Piece Cleaning Rod and AR Upper Receiver Bore Guide
-Optics Cleaning Kit
-Basic Chemicals/Solvents
Aeroshell 64 (Barrel Nuts and Castle Nuts)
Rocksett or Loctite 271/272
Blue Stick Loctite (NOT the liquid type)
Vibratite VC3
Cold Blue (Steel Touch-up)
Aluminum Black (Aluminum Touch-up)
Synthetic Grease (Assembly Lube)
Kroil Oil (Seized Fasteners)
Steel Wool
Loctite 620 or Permatex Indian Gasket Shellac (Barrel Bedding and for Carrier/Gas Key Installs)Lubricant
Bore Cleaner (I like Wipe Out Products)
Birchwood Casey Barricade (Great for external wipe down
AR 15 Armorers Course - montana - 06-19-2022
Part 2 of Chad's list..
***************INTERMEDIATE LIST***************
In my opinion, this is the bare MINIMUM for building and tearing down an AR.
-A SOLID Workbench
You can buy small Work Bench from Lowe's, Home Depot, and Harbor Freight, but most are
very light, have very light/weak frames, and thin work surfaces. Some people are forced to use
their kitchen countertops due to limited space or budget. If you mount a Vise to a flimsy or
unstable Work Bench it will often move when you try to torque on things, or if you try to remove
things like taper pins. If you want a good Workbench you can get a great one for $200.00 at
Walmart/Sam's Club. Their Work Benches are named Seville Classic. They have 2" Wood tops
and are heavy. I have 5 in my Shop/Classroom and they are indestructible and they have a few
sizes for those with limited space.
-4" to 6" Vise.
You should bolt your Vise to your Workbench and avoid clamp-on arrangements. You can get
by with just a Harbor Freight Vise, but it may not last.
A Vise is a must for Installing/Removing a Barrel/Rail System, Installing/Removing a Receiver
Extension, or Installing/Removing a Muzzle Device. I use the 4.5" Yost 445 Vises from Amazon
for my Shop/Classroom Work Benches and have held up great.
Yes, people can do the above without a Vise and Work Bench, but in my experience, you're not
going to properly torque things down, or do clean work without a SOLID Workbench and Vise.
-Vise Pads
You don't want to grab a gun part in a Vise without Vise Pads. There are many options for this,
but most are not great. In my opinion the best ones are made at home. I use Trex Decking
material and Leather. The alternative is 4.5" magnetic rubber Vise Blocks from Amazon.
-1?2" Foot Pound Clicker Torque Wrench
A Harbor Freight model will work here but not for a lifetime of uses. Do your research and buy
the best one you can afford. The beam types will work, but they are not easy to deal with when
cranking on an AR. Torque Wrenches remove the human element from a job and create
consistency in the work. I can build an AR without one, but I still use a Torque Wrench.
-Tapco Multi Tool Green Armorers Wrench
Yes, Tapco. My second choice is the Magpul Armorer's Wrench. It's the most versatile wrench
when it comes to aftermarket parts like barrel nuts, muzzle devices, and receiver extensions. It
isn't as comfortable to use as others, but it is a great wrench with a great warranty.-Geissele Reaction Block or Kley Zion Buffer Tube Jig
Which one you choose depends on what you will be working on. The Geissele ONLY works on
Milspec Receiver Extensions. The Kley Zion works on Milspec AND Commercial Receiver
Extensions. So if you only own Milspec Receiver Extensions, the Geissele is best. If you will be
working on other people's AR's , you have no control on what they will bring you and I guarantee
there will be Commercial Receiver Extensions you have to contend with.
-Wood Block
Good for supporting Barrel when using a Reaction Rod type tool, and good for hammering on
FSB Taper Pins.
-Leather Remnants, Brass Sheets, and Lead Sheets.
These are good for backing items you don't want to damage. Different material are good for
different purposes.
-Magpul BEV Block
The BEV Block does work as a Barrel Install/Removal Tool and a Magazine Well Block. If you
only need a Magazine Well Block then a NoMar Magazine Block will be a cheaper alternative.
-Harbor Freight Diamond File Set
Sometimes you need a file a part to fit and these cheap files work very well. If you are not
patient, don't have a steady hands, or a precise eye, then DON'T buy files. Remember to always
file the cheaper part.
-Mark Brown Customs Gas Tube Gauge
-Schuster Sling Staking Tool
-2# Hammer
For removing Taper Pins
-1/2" Tip Punch
For removing Taper Pins
-Propane Torch
For removing stuck/seized parts. MAP Gas is better but propane will work. Don't get items
cherry red.
-Gas Block Geanie, HB Industries Gas Block Alignment Pins, or Pasta
All of these are for aligning gas blocks to the gas port.
-Canned AirTurn it upside down and shoot liquid on parts you want to take apart or put together. Sometimes
freezing a part is better than heat.
-1.4636 Forster .223 GO Headspace Gauge
-1.4736 Brownells 5.56 Field Headspace Gauge
This is made by Forster
-NoMar Rail Blocks or YHM Rail Blocks
These help alignment of Handguard Rails to the Upper Receiver when you are installing screws
or tightening clamping bolts.
-1?2" Drive 2'+ Breaker Bar
For removing stuck Barrel Nuts.
-KNS Hammer Cage Tool
Good for people with large fingers, or those with arthritis.
-Digital Depth/Anvil Gauge
For quick and accurate Firing Pin Protrusion measurement.
-Brownells Barrel Nut Alignment Rod
This is great to check for barrel nut alignment. If used in a stripped upper it will show you if your
has key is not true.
-Midwest URR
I don't recommend the Geissele Reaction Rod or the Kley Zion Clone. If you use a Torque
Wrench, the Reaction Rod type devices are fine for Upper Receiver assembly, but if you plan on
tearing down AR Uppers or changing Rails you really don't want the Reaction Rod. The
Reaction Rod is NOT good for trying to remove seized or over torqued Barrel Nuts. Think about
how the Reaction Rod works. It holds the Barrel in a static position but does NOT lock the
Upper Receiver in place. If you have a stuck/seized Barrel Nut, the Upper Receiver will try to
spin with the Barrel Nut. What keeps the Upper Receiver from spinning? The Barrel Index Pin
does, and it will break off if you add too much force. Seen this countless times. This is why the
Midwest URR is best tool for the job, it has a sail that locks into the charging handle slot, and
teeth that lock into the barrel extension. These two features prevents the Upper Receiver and
Barrel Extension from spinning. The Midwest URR is a gauge of sorts as well. If your upper is
twisted, or the Barrel Extension is not timed properly, the tool won't go into the upper properly. I
have a video showing this issue from a few weeks ago. Clamshell Upper Receiver Blocks are
great for removing a stuck/seized Barrel Nut, but the Clamshell Blocks won't work on some billet
Uppers Receivers, and you can't use heat on the Barrel Nut without melting the Clamshell
Blocks.-PRI Gas Block Punch Block
Great for installing Gas Tubes in a Low Profile Gas Block
-Wheeler Bench Block
Works great for installing Roll Pins in the Trigger Guard, Charging Handle, and Bolt Catch. It
can be used for removing FSB Taper Pins, but I don't use it for that feature.
-Sinclair Bolt Vise
For removing Bolt Ejector and Reinstalling it. You can do this without a Bolt Vise but this tool
simplifies the job.
-Sharpening Stone
For resurfacing/decking a Gas Key
-M-Guns MOACKS Staking Jig
There is no other good option. I have tried them all. I suggest you avoid using striking tools to
stake from the side of the Gas Key. Doing so will stress the Gas Key Screws.
-Bondhus Metric & SAE Ball Tip Allen Drivers
-Blue Point Strap Wrenches
Best strap wrenches I have used.
-Timney Trigger Pull Gauge
-No-Mar or Brownells Hammer Drop/Dryfire Block
-.061-.250 Pin Gauge Set
That set will allow you to check the following:
Barrel Gas Ports, GO Spec for Bolt Firing Pin Hole (NO GO .070 requires a Taper Plug Pin
Gage), GO Spec for Lower Receiver Hammer & Trigger Holes (NO GO.163 requires a Taper
Plug Pin Gage), FCG Hammer & Trigger Holes, Carrier Key Bore, Cam Pin Bore, FSB/Gas
Block Gas Tube Bore, GO Spec for Pivot & Takedown Bores (My NO GO Spec is .253, so that
is outside the range of this Set).
You can't do the following with this set:
Gas Block/FSB Barrel Journal Bore, and Bolt Carrier 3 Bore.
-Selector/Safety Bore
AR 15 Armorers Course - CJW - 06-19-2022
You guys are just the damn best, the very, very best!
How about doing a Grendel Armors Class for only the very vilest members of the Horde.
Id pay $500 for this. 2 days. Taught by some of our Big Guns..
AR 15 Armorers Course - Old Bob - 06-19-2022
Over time I have collected nearly all of the tools Montana listed in his basic list & a lot of the tools in his intermediate list. With the right tools it can be amazingly easy to assemble or do maintenance work an ARs without buggering things up. My latest tool is a VISM Lower Receiver Vice Block Tool for assembling carbine buffer tubes to lower receivers. I used it for the first time yesterday for replacing the end plate & castle nut on a buffer tube with one of those ratchet type end plates & castle nut.
https://www.ncstar.com/optics-acc/tools/ar15-tools/vtarlwrvb-ar15-lower-receiver-viceblock
AR 15 Armorers Course - Harpoon1 - 07-28-2022
Well, fwiw, this SonsofLiberty supposed Expert Armorer apparently is not up to speed on how to operate a torque wrench properly! Sadly, that would seem to indicate, no one else there does either or his improper use and mistakes would have been caught and corrected during training! Makes you wonder, if they cant even torque a barrel nut on correctly, what else are they doing wrong?
To wit .at 4:00 in this link
https://youtu.be/_jVLYjmt5BU
AR 15 Armorers Course - montana - 07-28-2022
Harpoon1 Wrote:Well, this SonsofLiberty expert Armorer has no idea how to operate a torque wrench properly. None! Sadly, it looks like no one else there does either or his mistakes would have been corrected a long time ago! Makes you wonder, if they cant even torque a barrel nut on correctly, what else are they doing wrong?
To wit .at 4:00 in this link
https://youtu.be/_jVLYjmt5BU
That is not the first time I have seen experienced armors and precision shooters use that method of torquing barrels. Many will claim the barrel torque is not important as long as the barrel is tightened to the minimum required not to come loose.. Others claim it is vital to get 10+ ft lbs above min or set their wrench at 90 degrees for proper torque.. Why SOLGW uses a 60ftlb torque is beyond me, but I'm sure they have their reason.. Some will never screw the torque wrench back to zero when done, as they claim that it wears the internal springs out faster, just like emptying ammunition magazines..Every armorer-shooter- gun smith will have their own ways of doing things, which can leave beginners even more confused..Chad from the school of the American rifle is about as good as I have seen, but he uses many of his own specs based on his experience, instead of the TDP, which can add more confusion to beginners who don't take his class. ...According to the TDP specs, Chad's 3 bore sizes do not fit the +- tolerances, yet I understand his logic.. I try to follow the TDP specs when mating parts, but it can be quite challenging when using different manufacturers parts.. Even if certain parts are out of spec, they can run very well if they fit each other and accomplish what is needed of the system as a whole..JP has an entire line of rifles that do not meat TDP specs, but you will have to look long and hard to find a better or more reliable rifle system. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to the AR rifle system..Just because someone does something different doesn't necessarily make it bad or even wrong..SOLGW has a well deserved reputation for putting out an excellent product, but like all manufacturers, they will have their critics..
AR 15 Armorers Course - montana - 07-28-2022
Harpoon1 Wrote:Well, fwiw, this SonsofLiberty supposed Expert Armorer apparently is not up to speed on how to operate a torque wrench properly! Sadly, that would seem to indicate, no one else there does either or his improper use and mistakes would have been caught and corrected during training! Makes you wonder, if they cant even torque a barrel nut on correctly, what else are they doing wrong?
To wit .at 4:00 in this link
https://youtu.be/_jVLYjmt5BU
After further review from my 23&P manual, they are torquing the nut properly. The illustration shows the barrel nut being torqued exactly as SOLGW is doing it..
AR 15 Armorers Course - Harpoon1 - 07-28-2022
montana Wrote:After further review from my 23&P manual, they are torquing the nut properly. The illustration shows the barrel nut being torqued exactly as SOLGW is doing it..
Respectfully, no! They are not! IMO.
This is the proper procedure for using a Torque Wrench!
https://youtu.be/fBjr9-FDWYw
Clearly in the SOL video he is torquing the nut with the Crows Foot Wrench 180 degrees out from the handle ..that is WRONG! It should be at 90 degrees! Period! Not 80 degrees, not 100 degrees but 90 degrees! Apparently, you dont know the proper technique either?
Good Lord!
AR 15 Armorers Course - montana - 07-29-2022
Harpoon1 Wrote:Respectfully, no! They are not! IMO.
This is the proper procedure for using a Torque Wrench!
https://youtu.be/fBjr9-FDWYw
Clearly in the SOL video he is torquing the nut with the Crows Foot Wrench 180 degrees out from the handle ..that is WRONG! It should be at 90 degrees! Period! Not 80 degrees, not 100 degrees but 90 degrees! Apparently, you dont know the proper technique either?
Good Lord!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19011[/ATTACH]
If you look in the TM 9-1005-249-23&P Army manual on page 3-31 you will see the same type torque wrench and similar short combination tool SOLGW uses. No need to stroke out LOL, I torque my barrels like you do..Whether it makes a difference, I'll let you decide...
AR 15 Armorers Course - Harpoon1 - 07-29-2022
No need to stroke out!
LMAO!
AR 15 Armorers Course - CJW - 07-29-2022
Now you guys are really killing me, just d@mn killing me.
Think Im going to start day drinking at this very moment, 0615
AR 15 Armorers Course - Harpoon1 - 07-29-2022
CJW Wrote:Now you guys are really killing me, just d@mn killing me.
Think Im going to start day drinking at this very moment, 0615
Got you beat Chuck, I havent stopped from yesterday!
Old Forester 1920 Prohibition Style!
AR 15 Armorers Course - CJW - 07-29-2022
Poon1 you are just out of control!!!!!!
AR 15 Armorers Course - Vin - 07-29-2022
CJW Wrote:Great Unwashed,
I want to learn more about the AR platform. Ive built lowers and uppers that have shot well, but it has really been a hell of a struggle for me.
My lowers look as if they have been put together with a 2 lb claw hammer, a bench grinder & JB Weld.
Its time for me to really learn to do it right, what tools to buy, best components to buy etc.
YouTube has been a great help but I need hands on training.
Basically this is what I want to do, I want to show up with a box of parts and walk away with a new AR & every tool that the pros use to do the job.
Can you recommend a school for me?
Live Big,
Chuck
I'm a School of the American Rife alumni and highly recommend it. Get on Chad's mailing list and be ready to jump without hesitation when you get notice a slot has opened. He stays booked out typically 12-18 months out but occasionally adds a class.
Vin