Lesson Re-learned

[sgt_murf]

AHHHHHHHH....
Didn't catch the empty mag thought you was refrring to a topped off one. Hence my response
mags
leave them until everything is clear

[LRRPF52]

The only incident I can think of where a speed reload was used or saved a guy's life was when a guy in 5th Group entered and cleared a room by himself when he thought his buddy was behind him in the fog of the assault. He ended up going into a room and drilling 3 guys repeatedly with one mag. Then a large Afghan grabbed his helmet and NOD as a lever, tearing them off and tried to gouge his eyeballs, dislocated his arm with a big piece of lumber, while breaking his clavicle at the same time. When he fell on the ground, his shoulder popped back in place. He stood up, fought that guy hand-to-hand, and won that encounter. Then the 3 guys he had blasted decided they weren't dead, and he had a race with them for mag change as they attempted to get their guns into action, and he won.

http://www.army.mil/article/1662/sf-sold...ghanistan/

I would agree that practicing speed reloads will not hurt you, but they might help you in a worst-case scenario such as these if you're out flapping on your own.

[pinzgauer]

Then the 3 guys he had blasted decided they weren't dead, and he had a race with them for mag change as they attempted to get their guns into action, and he won.

Rule #2 (Zombieland) :-)

But Rule #1 (Cooper) also applies.

Just joking of course, sounds like a hairy situation. But also makes me wonder again about the magical stopping capability of 5.56. Makes you realize that none of them stop perfectly, even carbines over pistols.

[LR1955]

Then the 3 guys he had blasted decided they weren't dead, and he had a race with them for mag change as they attempted to get their guns into action, and he won.

http://www.army.mil/article/1662/sf-sold...ghanistan/

LRRP52:

That would be the first time I have heard of a 'speed change' saving someones life ... if it was what actually happened. The story doesn't indicate it was a magazine change that saved the NCOs' life. The story reported "a race to see who could get their weapons up first..." The Sergeant's weapon was loaded when this happened and he did not have to execute a magazine change in order to finish the fight. Nor was his initial magazine change made because he ran out of ammo and had to reload. The story reports "I realized that I was well into halfway through my magazine, so I started to change magazines."

So, the way this looks, he didn't get to a mag change. He was going to change mags when he got hit and dropped his carbine. And he then picked up the carbine with a half expended magazine and finished the fight.

Nothing wrong with practicing magazine changes in my book but I have still yet to hear of anyone who had to change a mag very fast or he / she would have been killed.

BTW -- what is the difference between a 'speed change' and a 'fast change', 'standard change', 'slow change', etc.?

LR1955

[stanc]

The biggest problem I have with that incident is that he entered and attempted to clear a courtyard ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!

During the chaos of battle, being separated from team members can happen even to the best, as shown in the other incident you cited: Special Forces MSG Pryor entered and tried to clear a room by himself, after his partner got engaged outside the room.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post15437

[OldCannon]

During the chaos of battle, being separated from team members can happen even to the best, as shown in the other incident you cited: Special Forces MSG Pryor entered and tried to clear a room by himself, after his partner got engaged outside the room.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post15437

I think LRRPF52's point (and Paul's) was that he went Rambo by choice, getting caught up in the heat of the moment. MSG Pryor's situation was different.

FWIW: I served 10 years, but I wasn't an infantry guy. I got more "professional" training only after I left the service, and I was taught the speed vs "tactical" reload definitions too (or speed vs "opportunistic" as John Holschen taught me ). I am, however, a firm believer in the "train hard, fight easy" mantra. I'd have gladly volunteered to be part of LRRPF52's squad.

[bwaites]

One of the things I've learned from other sports I've played is that if I practice doing stuff as fast as I can, when I am REQUIRED to do it under weird circumstances elsewhere I can still do it.

Jack Nicklaus used to teach that every kid should be taught to swing as hard as they could at the golf ball, because when you needed to throttle back as you improved it was much easier than trying to swing harder when you needed it.

Having been around LR1955 AND LRRPF52, I would go to war with either, (though I suspect I'd have to go a long ways to meet their standards!)

[stanc]

I think LRRPF52's point was that he went Rambo by choice, getting caught up in the heat of the moment.

It's possible, but do we know that's actually what happened?

All I could find in the article was this comment:

"About an hour and a half into the fight, I found myself in the backyard of a two-story residence."

I didn't see anything to say that he chose to go in alone.

MSG Pryor's situation was different.

How?

[appleseed-kdc]

The only incident I can think of where a speed reload was used or saved a guy's life was when a guy in 5th Group entered and cleared a room by himself when he thought his buddy was behind him in the fog of the assault. He ended up going into a room and drilling 3 guys repeatedly with one mag. Then a large Afghan grabbed his helmet and NOD as a lever, tearing them off and tried to gouge his eyeballs, dislocated his arm with a big piece of lumber, while breaking his clavicle at the same time. When he fell on the ground, his shoulder popped back in place. He stood up, fought that guy hand-to-hand, and won that encounter. Then the 3 guys he had blasted decided they weren't dead, and he had a race with them for mag change as they attempted to get their guns into action, and he won.

http://www.army.mil/article/1662/sf-sold...ghanistan/

I would agree that practicing speed reloads will not hurt you, but they might help you in a worst-case scenario such as these if you're out flapping on your own.

Another failure of the much vaunted 5.56 round that some people here keep defending. Yes, its anecdotal (I thought I would get that in first), but still a failure. Against Three people in a row this time.

[LRRPF52]

I had read another account of that MSG Pryor incident years ago when he got the Silver Star, and may have misinterpreted it to come away thinking that a speed reload had contributed to him winning the fight.

Either way, I personally train to reload as fast as I can do it without going spastic and losing control, which makes things worse when you fumble. I also do it while slung-up, vest on, jogging in place, prone, rolled left, rolled right, and I will work in some other oddball positions into my mag change drills, which I do when I'm shooting carbines high volume.

In my 1st Scout Platoon, we were taught one technique where we stuffed the empty mags in our BDU tops as we peeled back during break contact drills. This required you to tuck your BDU top into your trousers, and it even led me to start cutting off my lower pockets on the front of the BDU top, which I then sewed onto the upper sleeves, after taking a ton of dosimeter pouches (that one evreybody thought was for pen) from thrashed BDU's and using them for mini compartments under the sleeve pockets for SERE items. Anyway, the "stuff it in BDU top technique" doesn't work with SAAPI plates, but is viable for those who don't have armor, provided you tuck in your top so the mags don't fall out.

I built my own dump pouch and leg rigs, but I think they come more into use during range drills, and maybe extended contact like a lot of the guys are encountering in A-stan when on dismounted patrols.

I've also experimented with two mags clamped together side-by-side, but opted to not use that technique since dealing with them when empty is an issue, and the exposed mag can encounter more debris being introduced into it when going through brush, or in a sandy environment.

I think the hardest thing to internalize when fighting in these dynamic environments is when to throw the switch of aggression into maximum overdrive, and then turn it off and be patient while your buddies consolidate or communicate with you. I've made the mistake before, when I had much less training, and it would have ended up with fratricide had it been real on at least two occasions I can think of, without a threat even being in the rooms.

The fog of war can be thickest in MOUT, especially at night.

[LRRPF52]

Another failure of the much vaunted 5.56 round that some people here keep defending. Yes, its anecdotal (I thought I would get that in first), but still a failure. Against Three people in a row this time.

You also have to keep in mind that the mountainous Pashtun tribal people are a culture of warriors...they don't just go down because they were shot, they value their lives based on warrior spirit and ability, and have been raised fighting each other and foreigners since childhood. Pryor's account sounds like the 3 guys mustered their last bit of strength to at least put a Yankee infidel down before going to see Allah, even though their wounds would most-likely be fatal from exanguination. A 62gr M855 hitting you at 2900fps will definitely produce a lead shower most of the time at that range...I've seen it, and it is pretty impressive. Do we know that the results would have been different with another caliber, other than he would have had to reload sooner? Nope.

As in the Continuation War between Finland and Russia, where more Siberians were introduced to the campaign, the Finns had a saying:

"You have to kill a Siberian twice..."

Sounds like this is exactly what MSG Pryor did to the Afghans.

[stanc]

Do we know that the results would have been different with another caliber, other than he would have had to reload sooner? Nope.

In the action as described, he started to do a tactical reload when he "was well into halfway through" his magazine.

I read that as having fired fewer than 15 rounds from a 30-rd 5.56 magazine. Assuming a 25-rd mag for 6.5 Grendel, why would he have had to reload any sooner?

[LRRPF52]

I interpreted it as well past firing 15 rounds, like breaking 20 and getting worried. We also don't know if he had the KAC SOPMOD suppressor, so the guys might not have even realized they were shot if they were firing out the windows, especially under the likelihood that they were burning rounds from AK's, which is one of the most abusive environments to your senses when 7.62 is unleashed in a room.

Perception is a huge factor in a fight, and these guys might have just not felt much when they were shot, especially with the adrenaline pumping in a hyper-alert state. A 5.56 behaves like an explosive round already, which may not be that effective on an under-nourished Muj fighter who burns his feces in the winter to stay warm. Say we gunned him down with 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO, 6.8, or a Grendel in the same close-range scenario. I doubt a different assault rifle caliber would have yielded a different result, honestly.

[stanc]

A 5.56 behaves like an explosive round already, which may not be that effective on an under-nourished Muj fighter who burns his feces in the winter to stay warm. Say we gunned him down with 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO, 6.8, or a Grendel in the same close-range scenario. I doubt a different assault rifle caliber would have yielded a different result, honestly.

There's no way to know for certain without going back in time and having MSG Pryor do it with a different caliber.

However, as I understand it, such failures with M855 Ball result when yaw doesn't begin soon after impact. That can be caused by different factors (such as "fleet yaw" and angle of attack), which I don't remember well enough to explain, but which also reportedly 6.8 SPC is much less affected by. I don't know how 6.5 Grendel fares in this regard, but proper testing would show.

I think it's quite possible that a bigger, heavier (6.5 or 6.8mm) bullet would give superior terminal effectiveness than 5.56, and do it more consistently.

[LRRPF52]

Didn't I post some x-rays of lead shower effects here...?

[leopard6.5]

LRRPF52: Yes you did, at least I saw them in one of your posts. I am pretty sure it was this topic.

Lee

[stanc]

Not here. It's at

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post15637

[leopard6.5]

Thanks Stan.

I knew I saw it in one of his posts. Pretty dramatic pictures.

Lee