What if the AR15 had not been created?

[stanc]

That M14A1 has a muzzle break to help keep it controllable on AUTO...

Nice comparison of a 240lb shooter leaning into the muzzle-breaked M14A1 with a 120lb kid shooting the AR10 without a muzzle brake and not using the modern technique to drive the gun.

First, the M14A1 in that video does not have a muzzle brake.

Second, they weren't meant to be recoil control comparisons.

The M14A1 video was just to show the configuration that offers better balance and handling than any AR in my experience.

The AR10 video was merely a jesting "poke in the ribs" response to pinz's statement that the AR design..."is easy for untrained people to shoot to military standards."

Stoner's genius is evidenced in several areas:

Use of aircraft-grade aluminum for the receiver
Barrel extension fit into Aluminum receivers
Overall lightweight never achieved before in that caliber class
Fitting of receivers together
Mild recoil impulse in a lightweight auto-loading rifle
Excellent ergonomics and ease of user interface for common controls
Inherent accuracy

Obviously we have different ideas of what "genius" is.

When 95% of the features are copied from other designs, I find it difficult to call it genius. Great engineering, yes. Genius, no.

I'll be the first to admit that the charge handle design is nowhere near optimum, but I still don't like side-chargers on the right side of the weapon.

To each his own. I always liked charging handles on the right side, and even more so now that I have to switch to shooting left-handed.

The most convenient charge handle design is on the Sturmgewehr grandaddy of assault rifles, and the Belgian FAL.

We differ on that, too. When it comes to left side handles, I never cared much for that on the FAL. I always liked a farther forward placement, such as on the G3.

[LRRPF52]

The G3 has one of the worst charge handles, since it is difficult to operate, too far forward to use when in the prone...unless you're a 6'4" German I guess. HK took several steps backwards from the lessons learned in WWII with that rifle.

M14's are clearly not anywhere near as balanced as an AR. If you look at where the center of gravity is on the two designs, the M14 is forward, while the AR is right above your firing hand. Looking at an X-ray of the two illustrates this well. When you walk with them over a period of hours, days, and weeks, you don't need the X-ray.

To the M14's, or most other 7.62 battle rifles, I personally don't notice too much difference in recoil when using the modern aggressive technique of driving the gun, although the AR10 is the mildest of all the 7.62 NATO battle rifles. The Galil ARM in 7.62 NATO is probably the worst. If you dial down the gas system on the FAL to barely functioning, it can be quite mild.

As far as ergos go, the Garand safety is a terrible design, and the M14 faithfully continues the abortion forward into the modern era where it plagues shooters still. Mag changes suck as well with the M14 "mag well", which can actually allow the magazine to halfway lock into place with the forward catch hole not engaged into the op-rod guide (what genius devised that arrangement?), resulting in a major cluster.

I could go on about all the problems with that system, and how those problems simply don't exist with the AR. There's more than one good reason why the M14 served the shortest time as the main service rifle for the US Military, and why the AR15 has served the longest.

[stanc]

As far as ergos go, the Garand safety is a terrible design, and the M14 faithfully continues the abortion forward into the modern era where it plagues shooters still. Mag changes suck as well...

I could go on about all the problems with that system, and how those problems simply don't exist with the AR.

One more (hopefully final) time: I never said the M14 design is better in most respects than the AR!

I agree the AR safety, mag release and mag well are superior ergonomically, as is weapon weight, and never said otherwise.

However, in regard to overall fit, feel, balance and handling -- as well as charging handle configuration and location -- I still very much prefer the M14A1 over the AR, which I think sucks in those areas. That's my opinion, formed as a result of my experience in owning and shooting the two types. When I bought my AR's, I expected to like them in every way, so it was a surprise when I found that I actually disliked almost everything about them.

One small note: Not that it's terribly important, but I never felt "plagued" by the Garand safety, if only because...
[video=youtube;bTalnzcO0xk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk[/video]

[pinzgauer]

The G3 has one of the worst charge handles, since it is difficult to operate, too far forward to use when in the prone...unless you're a 6'4" German I guess. HK took several steps backwards from the lessons learned in WWII with that rifle.

Funny, I find the G3 charger approach to be one of my favorites, and I'm not a 6'4" German. mile: Even prone I find it easier to reach up & pull. Don't have to move my head. But I've shot a ton of West German surplus 7.62 out of a HK91, so just got used to it. One comment- many of the HK clones are not setup properly and require way too much force to uncam the rollers with the handle. On a factory HK it's not hard at all.

The AR charge handle I still find annoying having to pull it to my nose when the gun is mounted, and would consider a sidehandle if they were not so expensive. (Someone is making a left side non-reciprocating one for the AR).

[LRRPF52]

Yeah, the charge handle of the AR15 leaves much to be desired, but it helps keep crap out of the upper better than any other design I can think of, short of the FNC. I actually like the FNC's ejection port/charge handle system, but don't like a right side cocker. It's all about trade-offs.

Most of my experience with G3's is with real ones. I don't mind it too much with the HK33, since it is a little shorter. I like those designs the least when it comes to lack of bolt hold-open device, which is my main gripe against the FNC. I really do like the Belgian FAL charge handle though.

At the end of the day, you have to work with what you have. I think the Stoner 63 Commando version had one of the most innovative charge handles, being under the handguard, but I can see issues with that arising from shooting from certain supported positions for a rifle or carbine. I have some alternate designs and ideas, although they've pretty much been done already.

The AR15 with the BCM Gunfighter or PRI Gas Buster is much more user-friendly than the standard model, so I put those on all my AR15's.