Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

[LR1955]

Read the letter.

It asks that sensitive information concerning the technology not be included in the patent because a patent is open source information.

I saw absolutely nothing ordering Gila to stop working on their technology. Didn't even see anything telling them not to sell their product.

If I missed something, tell me.

LR55

[bj139]

I would think violating the "secrecy order" mentioned in the letter by the "Acting Secretary of the Army" would get someone in trouble.

[Azgeek]

Read the letter.

It asks that sensitive information concerning the technology not be included in the patent because a patent is open source information.

I saw absolutely nothing ordering Gila to stop working on their technology. Didn't even see anything telling them not to sell their product.

If I missed something, tell me.

LR55

They didn't "ask", they shut us down by virtue of the order. The letter was generated roughly two years after the fact! What I've told you here is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not going into every detail so you can just keep coming at me and defending the indefensible. I have other things to do. We are done with our R&D but can continue to enhance it if we choose to do so. What would be the point of that? Don't need to because its that good. We are again starting to sell the pistol ammunition. My only point by by participating in this thread was to disclose that the 6.5 Grendel could easily be enhanced and become a very effective and capable military round. AZG out.

[LR1955]

Guys:

Goes to show you what you can get into if you decide you want to enter the DoD R & D system with a truly innovative and lethal technology. It will be sucked up into the system of security and other laws and you will end up dancing to the tune played by many different organizations, often with very different goals. If you want to go to that dance, you better be ready to dance to their tune.

Let me add to this.

Obviously I do not know everything involving Asgeek's bullet and or ammunition and the interactions between Gila and the DoD. If I did have a timeline and all the paperwork, I could probably give a good statement of what went wrong, where, and why. Maybe even another avenue into the system but my time is long ago and the entire structure has changed. And you never learn the system by trying to figure it out from a line and block chart. You got to live within the system to figure out who does what.

I wouldn't even think of trying to get some sort of munition or weapon into the DoD system unless I had a huge corporation behind me who was willing to dedicate the time, personnel, and money into such a venture.

LR55

[JASmith]

LR55 speaks truth.

[Azgeek]

Gents -

I vowed I would not go here again but I need to make this crystal clear. None of this applies to our situation. There was no dating, dancing or sleeping together. GDS is private company with no involvement whatsoever with the DoD or any other government agency. We never approached the government for any reason, never tried to sell them anything nor am I trying to sell anything here. The letter I posted was the one item I thought would illustrate I was speaking the truth without jeopardizing my own ass. It is not the secrecy order! Its a letter to our local, worthless congressional representative in response to multiple formal and legal complaints against the DoD/Army. We want nothing to to with the DOD but just to be left alone. We have absolutely no expectation or desire to do any business with the federal government.

If our products are truly "detrimental to national security", well how the hell can they claim that if they never and continue to refuse to test it? We have spent the last two years pursuing every possible administrative remedies that exist. Now we play hardball. If my attitude sucks well yea it sure does! On top of that. I can't get my dam Gendel to shoot to my satisfaction with the new, expensive Proof barrel!

[LR1955]

Gents -

I vowed I would not go here again but I need to make this crystal clear. None of this applies to our situation. There was no dating, dancing or sleeping together. GDS is private company with no involvement whatsoever with the DoD or any other government agency. We never approached the government for any reason, never tried to sell them anything nor am I trying to sell anything here. The letter I posted was the one item I thought would illustrate I was speaking the truth without jeopardizing my own ass. It is not the secrecy order! Its a letter to our local, worthless congressional representative in response to multiple formal and legal complaints against the DoD/Army. We want nothing to to with the DOD but just to be left alone. We have absolutely no expectation or desire to do any business with the federal government.

If our products are truly "detrimental to national security", well how the hell can they claim that if they never and continue to refuse to test it? We have spent the last two years pursuing every possible administrative remedies that exist. Now we play hardball. If my attitude sucks well yea it sure does! On top of that. I can't get my dam Gendel to shoot to my satisfaction with the new, expensive Proof barrel!

Azgeek.

I am editing my post because it is too antagonistic.

Here are what I hope to be my final comments. I am offering them to guys who continue to think the DoD RD system is a corrupt bunch of bureaucrats who only want to stifle innovation. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

So here we go.

Most companies want free testing so they go to DoD with a novel idea and great claims about its capabilities hoping the technology will be tested because otherwise they could never afford to fund such tests. The government normally says 'no'. For the most part because there isn't a requirement for the technology. The company then goes public saying how corrupt the DoD system is because they wouldn't do the RD testing for said company. Other times the DoD looks at the technology and says if it is viable or not. If the DoD tells a company it is viable, the company normally thinks this means the DoD will do all their testing for them and cut a contract. Wrong. No requirement, no contract.

If DoD looks at their technology and says some or all of it won't perform as the company claims, the company normally disagrees (even if they have no evidence) and insists that if the DoD only ran a test (costing several hundred thousands of dollars and taking up hundreds of man hours), the DoD would 'see' that their claims are valid. If DoD runs such a test and finds the claims are not valid, that the item did not perform as promised, said company normally goes public saying how corrupt and inefficient the DoD system is. Even after they had agreed to the test plan.

Azgeek says "If our products are truly "detrimental to national security", well how the hell can they claim that if they never and continue to refuse to test it?"

OK -- somehow this technology got to DoD where it was reviewed and a determination made that the technology should not be open source. I did not see a thing classifying the technology and fail to see how testing it would prove that it was or wasn't 'detrimental to national security'.

So, it probably comes down to DoD not testing the product and thus the investors lost confidence.

Oh yes, the Congressman did exactly as I expected. He was a messenger boy. Typical bureaucrat.

I am sure Gila will overcome this debacle pretty quickly.

Not so sure about the high speed barrel, though.

LR55

[Azgeek]

So the light bulb just went on for me as well! Now I understand your motivation and you are wrong again. No one at GDS asked them to test our technology nor did we "go to the government" for any reason. You seem to be struggling with this fact or in complete denial that is possible a private company is being preyed upon by you beloved DoD. If you are going to make **** up, come to these bogus conclusions, prove it. Prove to everyone here that the Oracle (LR55) is speaking the truth. I'm now asking YOU to substantiate your claim!

Keep it professional-LRRP

[JASmith]

So the light bulb just went on for me as well! Now I understand your motivation and you are wrong again. No one at GDS asked them to test our technology nor did we "go to the government" for any reason. You seem to be struggling with this fact or in complete denial that is possible a private company is being preyed upon by you beloved DoD. If you are going to make shit up, come to these bogus conclusions, prove it. Prove to everyone here that the Oracle (LR55) is speaking the truth. I'm now asking YOU to substantiate your claim!

One doesn’t need the four-plus decades experience that I gained while working in defense R&D (military, civil service, and contractor) to realize that LR55 has it right.

If someone claims otherwise and demands proof of the validity of the insights he presents, it is clear evidence that the demand is based on naivete’ and an unwillingness to listen to those with experience.

The alternative is to get hired as a civil servant in one of the many military acquisition groups and get the experience. Working from the contractor side is an alternative but not likely to get the breadth of view working for a government R&D or acquisition agency will give.

[LRRPF52]

So the light bulb just went on for me as well! Now I understand your motivation and you are wrong again. No one at GDS asked them to test our technology nor did we "go to the government" for any reason. You seem to be struggling with this fact or in complete denial that is possible a private company is being preyed upon by you beloved DoD. If you are going to make **** up, come to these bogus conclusions, prove it. Prove to everyone here that the Oracle (LR55) is speaking the truth. I'm now asking YOU to substantiate your claim!

Keep it professional-LRRP

I didn't see where LR1955 even implied that you approached the DoD.

What he explained, from decades of experience dealing with these types of contracts involving products and services, is reality.

I took it as him trying to lay down a framework of understanding of how things actually work that he has personally seen with RDT&E, so even for a company that makes a product that ends up having unintended consequences relevant to DoD developmental systems, they can shut down your patent.

I'll give you another example. Let's say an inventor or engineering team comes up with a new aerospace technology that pushes into the realm of military capabilities that the USAF, USN, or USMC have already been testing in secret or under controlled circumstances.

The civilian team didn't know about the DoD's work on the project, and innocently ventured into military-controlled technology.

As soon as the civilian team demonstrates or shows their product at a trade show, it will normally pop up on the radar and will fall under a review by military technology controls protocols.

I believe this is what happened with your products, and why there was a determination made regarding National defense controls.

You don't ever have to approach the military with the technology or even communicate with them ever.

[LRRPF52]

By the way, what exactly does this bullet have to do with 6.5 Grendel as a military cartridge?

[Azgeek]

By the way, what exactly does this bullet have to do with 6.5 Grendel as a military cartridge?

As I've indicated on previous posts, the Grendel could be enhanced to meet most of the public domain military requirements for NGSAR. I gave an example/illustration of that using a simple upgrade of the 57.28 FN round. Thought that was applicable. Maybe not.

[BluntForceTrauma]

AZG, I appreciate your contributions, and respect your frustration. I'd be insane if the gov't shut down my commercial project!

Anyway, I'm always looking for cool ways to enhance 65G capability, both civ and mil, so thanks for contributing.

I want to promote peace and harmony here, so please understand that LR55 is either current or former SF, instructor-level, and in that capacity I'm guessing he's seen more than a few products presented as "wonder weapons," and so his default mode is skeptical, with a little bit of no-nonsense, drill-sergeant-like bruskness thrown in for flavor. The kind of kick-ass, get-it-done guy you'd want in a foxhole with you.

This discussion came close to falling over the edge, and I appreciate everyone bringing it back on track.

Let's continue forward. It's all good. Thank you.

[stanc]

As I've indicated on previous posts, the Grendel could be enhanced to meet most of the public domain military requirements for NGSAR. I gave an example/illustration of that using a simple upgrade of the 57.28 FN round. Thought that was applicable. Maybe not.

I'd say not. All you showed us was a block of clay, reported to have been shot with a GDS pistol bullet.

That tells us nothing at all about the GDS rifle wunderbullet, or how much it might enhance 6.5 Grendel.

[Azgeek]

Fair enough point stanc. I'm going to pass the feedback along to you from FN when it become available. Heck I'll even pass along our FN engineering contact who asked us to do this testing. While your at it, please ask him how their testing of our 9mm round is going. Then all this it won't be "purported or alleged". I've given the truthful, substantiated reasons why I cannot disclose more information but yes I get it, that's still not good enough.

My last post on this topic.

[stanc]

Fair enough point stanc. I'm going to pass the feedback along to you from FN when it become available. Heck I'll even pass along our FN engineering contact who asked us to do this testing. While your at it, please ask him how their testing of our 9mm round is going. Then all this it won't be "purported or alleged".

A thousand pardons. I should've said "reported" instead of "purported." I accept that it is what you said it is. Correction made to my previous post.

I've given the truthful, substantiated reasons why I cannot disclose more information but yes I get it, that's still not good enough.

Well, you can't reasonably expect otherwise. You tell us that GDS has developed a new bullet which would greatly enhance 6.5 Grendel military potential, then tell us you can't tell us anything about it. Kinda difficult to discuss something for which there is ZERO information...