New Marine Corps weapon to replace SAW

[YutYut]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011...iar-hk416/
Now if only it were chambered in grendel this could be something real special. Seems like a lost opportunity. Under 12 pounds is a significant weight reduction.

[bwaites]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011...iar-hk416/
Now if only it were chambered in grendel this could be something real special. Seems like a lost opportunity. Under 12 pounds is a significant weight reduction.

Once again, our military shoots itself in the foot. The HK is just a dolled up M4/M16, with no real long term advantage. 30 round mags in a 600 RPM chassis: yeah that makes sense for a SAW!

No interchangeable barrel; they'd have been better off with the SCAR16 or the ACR.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid....

[YutYut]

Yep sure does seem like an m4 with a open bolt firing mod. Im sure they will come out with a larger capacity magazines.
As far as caliber im dissapointed they didn't change. I understand the convinience of saving money by not having new mags/bolts/barrels etc.. Manufactured but its gonna have to happen one day. I have a few friends that SAW gunners so im curious to hear their opinions when they get their hands on em.

[bwaites]

Well, they could use the new Surefire quad stacks and get 100 rounds, so I guess that would help. But....

I'd be interested to hear LRRP52's take since he has used all of these weapons.

[YutYut]

Well, they could use the new Surefire quad stacks and get 100 rounds, so I guess that would help. But....

I'd be interested to hear LRRP52's take since he has used all of these weapons.

thats what i was thinking. Ive used the saw during training but never in a combat situation.

[LRRPF52]

"The HK416 is basically an AR15 that HK “fixed” with a gas piston assembly and other tweaks to improve reliability, particularly during full-auto fire." Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (wish we had the little dude dying on the floor laughing his guts out animation)

From the HK416's that I've fired, I would leave that gun in the arms room probably. I hate the SAW with a fervent passion, but the good ones (very few that actually run) are nice to have, since it's a belt-fed platform. There is zero capability added to the Infantry Squad with a re-hashed Auto Rifleman, like they did with the M16A1 and a bipod before the SAW trials of the 1970's. A 30rd magazine-fed squad support weapon is pretty much worthless, which is why I'm waiting to see how the Surefire and, as of yet unreleased Magpul coffin mags work out.

The Surefire followers are not anti-tilt, because the design couldn't work with them the way they approached feeding quad-stacks into a double-column stagger, but I really didn't have a lot of problems with standard M16 30rd mags with the black followers unless the mag body or lips were damaged either.

I'm of the school that leans towards relying on a belt-fed LMG for any dedicated AUTO platform that is intended to provide fire support for Teams, Squads, and Platoons. The 100rd nutsack for the SAW is a great ammunition carrier/feed source, and should be incorporated into the next LMG. Even if I equip a SAW gunner with an HK IAR, carrying 6x60rd Surefire mags, what does he do with the mags when finished? Drop them in a gigantic dump pouch? What happens to the ammo load that members of his team carry for him to distribute that 800-1200rd+ combat load? I'll tell you what will happen if you hand a bunch of 60rd mags to Joe to put in his assault pack for the SAW gunner...he will have one in his M4 (or M16A4 in the Marines' case), and burn the SAW gunner's ammo, leaving him with 30rd mags.

With a belt-fed, you give a rats about the spent links, and just slap a fresh belt on the feed tray, close the cover, charge the weapon, and continue to fire when appropriate. A good SAW gunner can conduct a rapid nutsack change fairly quickly, but you have the same issue with retaining the nutsacks, but they fill a much smaller profile than the 60rd SF mags, and slip right back into the SAW pouch nicely. I would keep them stored in my SAW pouches, and since you're in the prone when firing a belt-fed LMG most of the time, it was easy for me to work out a load management sequence to account for the nutsacks.

The benefits of the IAR are that everyone in the Fire Team can share magazines, which then backfires possibly as a detriment if guys prefer the 60rd mags. I still think the 60rd mags should be issued if they prove to be reliable, so that at least one Rifleman per Team is carrying one, and staggers the incidence of magazine changes to prevent lulls in fire during contact with the enemy. We used to use 20rd mags for this sometimes, but I'd prefer more ammo in the gun rather than less, especially since the Russians have made a 60rd coffin mag for the AK100/AK74 series, and the 45rd RPK mag is widely used by Spetsnaz and Islamic militants in certain regions of the world, to include the Caucasus.

The Surefire 100rd mag would be a complete NO-GO due to its profile, while the 60rd mag is not bad at all. I'll probably have one if I can get one well below that insane price tag for it ($129!!!???). This HK IAR deal has been going-on for a while, so it's not really news. I think it will come and go, once people realize how bad that system is, and its inappropriateness in the LMG role when the hooahs start dead-lining barrels.

[stanc]

Once again, our military shoots itself in the foot. The HK is just a dolled up M4/M16, with no real long term advantage. 30 round mags in a 600 RPM chassis: yeah that makes sense for a SAW!

No interchangeable barrel....

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid....

I'd say it's not really stupid, but is instead an example of equipping to fight the last war.

The IAR actually makes a lot of sense for the requirements of urban combat that Marines encountered in Iraq:

[video=youtube;M0mTMIdrUtw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0mTMIdrUtw[/video]

However, the IAR is a poor choice to provide sustained, supporting fires needed for the long range fights in Afghanistan:

[video=youtube;UiUTzTCQ33I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiUTzTCQ33I[/video]

[stanc]

I'd prefer more ammo in the gun rather than less, especially since the Russians have made a 60rd coffin mag for the AK100/AK74 series...

[video=youtube;GJM8asnj6JY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJM8asnj6JY[/video]

[LRRPF52]

You still need the same basic capabilities in MOUT as you do in the desert or green. If I'm clearing buildings or advancing through city streets, the SAW gunner from a trail team will provide cover along with the rest of the team for the assaulting or advancing team. What is needed in both types of environments is a weapon that is more maneuverable and lighter, but with the same belt-fed sustained fire capability, as in 100rds on the gun minimum. Something like the KAC LMG or the Ultimax would be much more appropriate, since they are both very compact, lightweight, and use constant recoil.

[stanc]

You still need the same basic capabilities in MOUT as you do in the desert or green. If I'm clearing buildings or advancing through city streets, the SAW gunner from a trail team will provide cover along with the rest of the team for the assaulting or advancing team.

Check the Fallujah video above. In the sequence starting @ 1:00, the SAW gunner is right in there with the rest of the team assaulting into the building.

[LRRPF52]

Check the Fallujah video above. In the sequence starting @ 1:00, the SAW gunner is right in there with the rest of the team assaulting into the building.

Yeah, I've done it. The SAW sucks in the house, but is a little more maneuverable with the commando barrels (which have become pretty standard in dismounted units in the Army) and the newer stocks, but you still have a weapon that weighs over 20 pounds without optics and an IR pointer, which were SOP to have mounted on our SAWs without the user being allowed to remove them for operations unless they were broken and sent up for repairs. Believe me, I've spent weeks on-end carrying the SAW in different stages of my 10 years in Infantry and Airborne units. It needs to be replaced. I don't know how they managed to take the MAG58, the AK operating system, and a great feed tray cover, and make it a jam-o-matic, but FN pulled it off big-time.

That video only illustrates what I've been telling people about real-world experience with the SAW. It is a piece of garbage. If it was a great weapon, I'd be singing its praises like I do the M4.

[YutYut]

Check the Fallujah video above. In the sequence starting @ 1:00, the SAW gunner is right in there with the rest of the team assaulting into the building.

thats one video. When i went through MOUT training at mct it was always prefered to send in the A4's and M4's. Even the A4 is completely unpractical with its 20 inch barrel but they still have em clearing buildings.
We do still have the M240b but thats not always readily available at a team level. Sometimes not even the squad level. It just sucks to see them invest so much money on a weapon system that doesn't make sense as a replacement SAW. We only receive 8.8% (last time i checked i could be wrong) of the entire defense budget, so if this doesn't work out it makes a big impact.

[YutYut]

does that look like any fun to clear a house with? No.
I think it would've been a great choice to use the grendel for the IAR. Then it could be argued that accuracy was worth the sacrifice

[LRRPF52]

HK sure pulled a great marketing scam on the Marines, just like FN and Belgium did with the F-16 licensed contract manufacturing in the Northern NATO allies of Norway, Denmark, and Belgium. I don't know if it's true, but Belgium supposedly tacked the FN Minimi contract as a condition of adopting the F-16 as their primary fighter, but who knows. It definitely is a piece of fricken garbage. In Ranger Regiment, they have dedicated civilian armorers who deploy with each Battalion to keep the weapons in tip-top shape. When I talked with 2nd Ranger Battalion's armorer (a Marine Vietnam combat vet), he said that f****n SAW is the most difficult gun to keep running, and commanded the majority of his attention, while the 240's and M4A1's only really required normally-scheduled maintenance. That was my experience throughout my service, only most units don't and won't ever have that type of competent support at the Battalion-level. You have guys who joined the Army, and were told: "You've been selected to be an armorer." Not gun guys who know what it's like to have your life on the line with a fire-stick between you and some turd burglar from Tim buk tu.

I bet the Marines are going to be really impressed when they try to insert the Surefire 60rd mag in the unique HK mag well, which is not compatible with PMAGs, and then see what happens. We had to force one into a 416 the other day, just to see if it fit. It wouldn't drop free either, and had to be pried out with force. Gotta love some HK right about now...mmm...mmmm.....mmmmm. Check the price tag of an IAR or 416 as well...they're proud of their products, even if they don't work and KABOOM on shooters overseas.

[LRRPF52]

does that look like any fun to clear a house with? No.
I think it would've been a great choice to use the grendel for the IAR. Then it could be argued that accuracy was worth the sacrifice

And that pic shows it with the new lightweight, lower-profile ATPIAL! I've done 12, 18, & 30-mile forced marches with them, as well as continuous patrolling with one for about 2 months in the forests of North Carolina. I handled my business, but these little guys who weigh 140 just get beasted by the SAW. In the Middle East, the SAW chokes like Bill Clinton at a hippie frat party at the first sign of dirt on the belt. You need to barber brush the ammunition religiously in any down time, and keep a thick lube on the operating parts, making sure the ejection port cover stays closed.

[YutYut]

Hahahaha. Yea. Im not gonna lie i got pretty slayed by it on the 12 mile hike on the super fun hills of camp pendleton

30 miles..... The times when its nice to be pog haha

[stanc]

thats one video.

Yes. By chance, it was the first video shown in the search. Since it was good, I didn't bother looking at others. But, I'm confident that a similar scene could be found in other urban combat videos, if one cared to spend the time viewing all of them.

I can tell you, though, that I used to have a US Army photo of several soldiers lined up, ready to assault into an Iraqi building. And just like the scene in the Fallujah video, there was an M249 gunner there in the middle of the entry team.

When i went through MOUT training at mct it was always prefered to send in the A4's and M4's.

Uh huh. And as the video shows, what is taught in training ain't necessarily how it's done on the battlefield.

As an example, thirty or so years ago a San Diego cop was shot and killed while on duty late one night. His body was found sitting in his patrol car, in the middle of an isolated parking lot. At the time, a young woman I knew was undergoing training at the police academy. I mentioned to her that it looked to me as if he had pulled up driver's door to driver's door with another police car, and the murder may have been done by a fellow officer.

Her reaction was, "Oh, no. That couldn't possibly happen. We are taught to never pull up to another vehicle that way, not even if it's another police car."

Well, it turned out that it did happen in precisely that manner.

----------------------------------

"Train as you fight, fight as you train" sounds good, but it doesn't always work that way in reality.

[stanc]

HK sure pulled a great marketing scam on the Marines...

Not sure what you mean by that. The IAR was not proposed by HK. It was a USMC idea. IIRC, we discussed it on the old forum several years ago. There was a Marine Corps Gazette article, the original of which is no longer accessible, but a copy is at:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=813478

[YutYut]

Point taken. I just hope they didnt end up throwing away 24 million dollars

[LRRPF52]

In 2002-2003, our SAWs looked like this, but with the Elcan brick weight as an MGO (Machinegun Optic) and a PEQ-2A mounted on the Rail Adapter System:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]494[/ATTACH]

This is what they've gone to in conventional units:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]493[/ATTACH]

This one actually makes sense (Mk.46), but again is supported by a dedicated civilian armorer:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]492[/ATTACH]