600 Yds & Beyond

[brut28481]

I have been continuing on my quest for 1,000 Yds with by 23" Lilja 6.5 Grendel. This being my first precision/long range set-up, I am learning as I go. With that, I have spent a considerable amount of time reloading, chronoing & grouping @ 100yds. I feel very confident in the accuracy of my rig (1/3 MOA or better @ 100yds 5-shots) & my chrono data. Still working on perfecting the craft of the trigger pull. All that being said, it has been somewhat easy to hit steel out to 600yds with my 123-Amax chrono data, Strelokpro app. & 4-16 Vortex PST. 800 yds, not so. I have read a lot of post on here about the challenges past 600. Where I am shooting doesn't have berms (in FL, flat, humid, hot) so not 100% sure what is going on. I have been using different different G1 BCs from Litz/Hornaday & G7 BC from Litz which all show variations in bullet drop. In summary, why does the challenge become so much more after 600 yds? Thanks!

[37L1]

The drop is more, speed is less and external factors like wind have a bigger effect.

[Fredman]

I feel your pain. I also shoot in a long flat meadow. It's hard to see the bullet impact in two feet of grass. I ended up putting up a big piece of cardboard to see exactly where I was hitting out to 1000. Make your own data, test it on different days, temps, humidity. Then modify a program to closely match your data.
Once your on, then you can figure out the blasted wind!

[Slappy]

Air is so heavy along the coast not like the mountain air that is fo sure. Sounds like you will get it, practice practice practice. If memory serves me correctly there is one or two on here in the lite air that have done it with the 16 inch barrel?? BANG BANG!!

[lrgrendel]

Velocity is "King"....
How fast have you got your 123 Amax going?

As mentioned, 4000' or 5000' elevation with nice dry air is one thing.
But being in Florida at sea level with humidity is another.

I live in Orlando. Experienced exact same thing BUT again, velocity rules...

[PredatorDown]

I've come to the conclusion that the advertised G1 BC of .510 for the 123gr Amax is only for higher velocities. Once it gets to a certain velocity, it the BC actually changes on the G1 drag curve models. That's why Sierra bullets will put out a stepped G1 BC on most, if not all of their bullets for different velocities. My data with the 123gr Amax matches pretty close to around the 800 or so yard mark, but then progressively gets further and further off the farther I push it. At 1k, it's usually 1.5-2 minutes low. By the time it's out to a mile, it's around 15 minutes low.

This is where the advantage of the G7 drag curve comes into play. It is consistent across the entire velocity spectrum. I only wish Litz would put out a G7 curve for the 123gr Amax.

Here's an example of the Sierra stepped G1 BC calculations:

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/prod...-MatchKing

[brut28481]

I'm pushing my 8208 XBR Load, 123 A-Max out at 2,545. I have some 107 SMK loads worked up that I have going 2,695-2,750 I might try those out to 1,000yd. I did put some 24x36 paper up below my steel that I got a few hits on as I was trying different holdovers. Just didn't keep track of which hold overs hit so not sure what is going on!

Ingrendel- have you shot at Manatee Gun Club's 1,000 yd range? If so, do you know if they have berms?

Predator Down - I have seen some debate on here regarding Litz's G7 drag curve for the 123 A-max. Consensus I have gathered is around .239, did that number correspond when you went out to a mile?

[majohnson]

To reach a 1000yds your much better off pushing 123gr bullets, pushing then as fast as you can safely. Try Lapua or Nosler see if you get more FPS out them or the Amax. I hit 600yds and 1000yds the 1st day out shooting Hornady factory loads. Since then I have done it using reloads with Amax and Nosler bullets. Try CFE and see if you get more FPS. Don't worry about giving up a little accuracy for some extra speed. A very man that started shooting when he went into the military several decades ago.

Keeping that bullet supersonic is important. Like others mentioned once you get past 600 environmental conditions being having more of an effect on the bullet. Good luck.

[PredatorDown]

To reach a 1000yds your much better off pushing 123gr bullets, pushing then as fast as you can safely. Try Lapua or Nosler see if you get more FPS out them or the Amax. I hit 600yds and 1000yds the 1st day out shooting Hornady factory loads. Since then I have done it using reloads with Amax and Nosler bullets. Try CFE and see if you get more FPS. Don't worry about giving up a little accuracy for some extra speed. A very man that started shooting when he went into the military several decades ago.

Keeping that bullet supersonic is important. Like others mentioned once you get past 600 environmental conditions being having more of an effect on the bullet. Good luck.

Going off my own personal experience, I have to respectfully disagree. I have my accuracy load with 123gr amax at a mere 2530fps. If I pushed it to the ragged edge of attainable speed with my 22" barrel at 2650, that only nets me a 3MOA advantage at 1000 yards. If I can consistently group MOA at 1000 yards, and quite often shoot right around MOA to 1400, and even stretch it to a mile with only going 2530, what else do I really have to gain?

[majohnson]

Going off my own personal experience, I have to respectfully disagree. I have my accuracy load with 123gr amax at a mere 2530fps. If I pushed it to the ragged edge of attainable speed with my 22" barrel at 2650, that only nets me a 3MOA advantage at 1000 yards. If I can consistently group MOA at 1000 yards, and quite often shoot right around MOA to 1400, and even stretch it to a mile with only going 2530, what else do I really have to gain?

I don't mind, it a general rule and all barrel shoot differently. Most barrels will have 3 different accurate nods. How much effort did you spend trying to get that load to shoot better. Accuracy can change with your next pound of powder, or a new lot of bullets. There are several articles written about your best accuracy coming from close to max loads. I am curious what yardage does your load go transonic? My guess is about 1200 yards.

[PredatorDown]

I don't mind, it a general rule and all barrel shoot differently. Most barrels will have 3 different accurate nods. How much effort did you spend trying to get that load to shoot better. Accuracy can change with your next pound of powder, or a new lot of bullets. There are several articles written about your best accuracy coming from close to max loads. I am curious what yardage does your load go transonic? My guess is about 1200 yards.

I spent a lot of time playing around with different powders/charges/seating depths before I chose the one I'm using. Most loads shot between .75-1.25", with my pet load consistently shooting 5/8". I worked up to max loads with BLC2, CFE223, and AR-Comp and my groups seemed to fall apart when I got too high. Either way, I won't complain with the performance of the round.

I should be going transonic somewhere around the 1150-1200 yard mark depending on the elevation I'm shooting at (anywhere from 4k'-7k'), but it still appears to remain stable all the way out to a mile. Looking at all of the hits on steel, every impact is still centered and concentric. Whereas I've had a buddy shooting a DT SRS in 6.5 Creedmoor with 129gr Prime ammo and his has obvious signs of yaw at 1400 yards. He was pretty pissed considering it's in a rifle system that's right around the $5k mark without optics haha

[LRRPF52]

I think tighter twist rate plays a more important role in stability at ranges past 1000yds.

I shouldn't have predictable impacts at 1200yds from a 16" barrel, but I have. Twist is 1/7.5" on that pipe.

[Regal]

Hey guys,
I know this post is a bit older, but figured I'd breathe some life back into it - especially with how popular long-range stuff is getting.

So over the last 16 months, my 6.5 Grendel has gotten a work-out. With an Odin works 20" barrel and a mix of Hornady Black & my personal handloads (123 gr A-max or ELD / 30 gr BL-C(2) / 2.255" COAL), yardages are 400 - 1200.

I have had great luck with the little 6.5, but have noticed that practical yardage really runs out around 900 yards. Can you get it farther, yes - but only if conditions are favorable.

I have pictures of freshly painted targets with completely sideways hits at 930 yards. Several 1,000 yard targets with all oblong holes - seriously 17 inch group at 1,000 yards and every round with yaw. She just runs out of juice, at least where I shoot.

[Bigs28]

What elevation are you at?

[biodsl]

According to Ballistic AE, a 123 gr A-Max running between 2480 and 2580 fps stays supersonic past 1,000 yards (at sea level and standard conditions), but enters trans-sonic at around 800 and 850 yards respectively. This could be the culprit. I've read that as some bullets go below 1.2 mach their flight can destabilize and become unpredictable.

[LRRPF52]

Hey guys,
I know this post is a bit older, but figured I'd breathe some life back into it - especially with how popular long-range stuff is getting.

So over the last 16 months, my 6.5 Grendel has gotten a work-out. With an Odin works 20" barrel and a mix of Hornady Black & my personal handloads (123 gr A-max or ELD / 30 gr BL-C(2) / 2.255" COAL), yardages are 400 - 1200.

I have had great luck with the little 6.5, but have noticed that practical yardage really runs out around 900 yards. Can you get it farther, yes - but only if conditions are favorable.

I have pictures of freshly painted targets with completely sideways hits at 930 yards. Several 1,000 yard targets with all oblong holes - seriously 17 inch group at 1,000 yards and every round with yaw. She just runs out of juice, at least where I shoot.

Welcome aboard. What twist rate do you have in that barrel?

600yds is quite boring for me unless I shoot sub-2 MOA targets at that range.

[FLS]

I see the same thing at here on the South Carolina coast. 1st round hits on 1-2 MOA targets out to 800 -900 with 123 Amax is fairly easy. Beyond that the little cartridge is slowing down fast in our heavy air.

[StoneHendge]

Regal, have you noticed a difference between the amax and eld? I broke in my JP 22er with some leftover factory amax. Did 5/8" at 100 and was fine on 750, but it started getting pretty inconsistent at 900. Moved onto to some factory 123 black and the 900 really tightened up despite it being a little slower. My assumption was that Hornady was actually telling us the truth about the melting amax tips and that that may have actually been a real reason behind moving to ELD (in addition to being able to charge us more money). I would think that if there are any deformities on the tip, any destabilization that might occur as the transition zone is entered would be magnified and things could fall apart pretty fast. However, with where I shoot, a 123 isn't starting to go transonic until >1k, yet there was the noticeable difference between amax and eld at 900.

[lrgrendel]

Brut :

If your budget allows. Probably better of shooting a Berger 130 gr than the 123 gr Amax. Way better BC.
CFE seems to be the powder to give you the required velocity.

DEPENDING on your age! A little more powerful scope might also help you... people will tell you they shoot a fixed 10 power at 1000, but not the average joe....

Shooting consistent at 1000 yds is expensive, I found out the hard way and became very frustrated with cheaper equipment.

Hope this helps.

[DJL2]

For group consumption, using JBM Ballistics based on the data I just chrono'd for the 123 gn ELD-M @ 2470 fps. JBM uses a G7 BC of .255 for ELD-M. Temp 26C, Humidity 80% (welcome to NC...lucky it was this 'low'), Pressure 29.99, Alt 500 feet ASL. Speed of sound calculated @ 1137.6 ft/s, Air Density @ 0.07177 lb/ft³.

Based on that input, the calcs say:
Transonic (Mach 1.2) @ 700m
Subsonic @ ~850m
V@1000: 1054.9 fps

I could play with it and iterate to find the MV that would get me supersonic to 1000+ meters...but, I suspect that'll be "nice to know" and in no way attainable.
ETA: 2700 fps will do it...transonic @ 825, subsonic right after 1000 meters. Assuming accuracy in the calcs...