PDWs...and other small arms.

[Lightning8]

I remember the days of 9x25 Dillon in IPSC - in Open class comped and red dot race guns. Muzzle blast was horrendous and noone wanted to be the Range Officer with that shooter. Tore up the steel targets in some cases. I remember discussions that no one was interested in a stock pistol in 9x25. For sure, it has velocity and penetration.

[Lightning8]

Interesting. Photos of US infantry soldiers carrying both are the exception, rather than the rule ( https://www.google.com/search?q=9x25+dil...M:&imgrc=_ ), and I don't recall ever seeing any combat videos showing that.

There are a lot of things in theater that are not filmed. Not a lot of media when out on road clearing operations with the Combat Engineers and our Soldiers were too busy to be filming themselves. There are not enough M9s (or other pistols) for every Soldier/Marine to dual carry but it was much more common that you indicated. Frankly, only a fraction of deployed Soldiers/Marines deployed in theater went outside the wire so if DOD wanted all those outside wire could have dual carried. At some point, you have to make the "weight" question of do I want to carry pistol, holster, extra mags, etc. or does rifle ammo, radio, etc. take priority.

[stanc]

There are a lot of things in theater that are not filmed. Not a lot of media when out on road clearing operations with the Combat Engineers and our Soldiers were too busy to be filming themselves. There are not enough M9s (or other pistols) for every Soldier/Marine to dual carry but it was much more common that you indicated.

I'll take your word for that. Previously, all I had to go by is the photographic and video evidence, which shows -- for infantry and special forces -- that dual carry is rather uncommon.

Frankly, only a fraction of deployed Soldiers/Marines deployed in theater went outside the wire so if DOD wanted all those outside wire could have dual carried. At some point, you have to make the "weight" question of do I want to carry pistol, holster, extra mags, etc. or does rifle ammo, radio, etc. take priority.

Yup. And it seems pretty clear that the majority of troops who went outside the wire elected to not dual carry.

[stanc]

As a civilian, you have that option. However, outside of SOF operators, very few soldiers are armed with both a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in china. No troops are issued PDWs, but we're still here discussing it. We're talking about what should be, not what is.

Most of us are discussing PDW characteristics, not if a pistol should be carried in addition to the M4 carbine.

[cory]

Give me a second I'm going to go pull a stanc...

We don't need pistols for most of the duty positions that carry pistols, because pistols are about worthless for pretty much everyone in the military except investigators and a few units in the SOF community, and the modern handgun/sidearm needs to be brought into the 21st Century as well, not stuck in the rut of the 20th Century.

[stanc]

Give me a second I'm going to go pull a stanc...

[n9nwo]

Tavor is too big for support troops who need to focus on their primary jobs without a magazine sticking out of the weapon.

A PDW needs to be able to be worn on a belt without being overly obtrusive and a snag hazard.

The problem is that often the support troops are doing patrols. Not staying in an office. Yes if you are a foppet then you may not need a rifle. But few support troops are staying within the wire. More and more of our combat injuries and deaths are among the support troops, not infantry.

The Tavor is a modular system. It can be configured as a rifle, a carbine or as small as a SMP. Multiple calibers and barrel lengths.

Most of the weapons mentioned are too big. The Thompson is. But then even the P90 is about the same size as the Tavor.

Remember that the PDW has to not only fit on a belt but also be effective out to 300m.

[n9nwo]

One of the things I noticed was that while I was issued an M9 in Afghanistan, generally outside the wire we carried rifles. The M9 was for having a weapon on base (FOP). We also had a unit policy of dropping our weapons to slings then going to steel (knives for the most part) if we were over ran. Under 10 ft we risked shooting each other. So knives were better. One of our guys carried a Tomahawk and used it against the Tabliban. Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach. Scared the crap out of the rest of them.

Outside the wire you want a rifle and knives.

[LRRPF52]

The problem is that often the support troops are doing patrols. Not staying in an office. Yes if you are a foppet then you may not need a rifle. But few support troops are staying within the wire. More and more of our combat injuries and deaths are among the support troops, not infantry.

The Tavor is a modular system. It can be configured as a rifle, a carbine or as small as a SMP. Multiple calibers and barrel lengths.

Most of the weapons mentioned are too big. The Thompson is. But then even the P90 is about the same size as the Tavor.

Remember that the PDW has to not only fit on a belt but also be effective out to 300m.

If you are task-organized to conduct active patrols outside the wire, the PDW is not something you want to be carrying unless you're an RTO, Combat Medic, etc.

[Klem]

Remember that the PDW has to not only fit on a belt but also be effective out to 300m.

...and make a cappuccino latte.

Knives at 5 paces and 300M guns that fit on the belt. This thread is more Star Trek than reality.

A 5.56mm 10.5" AR with a collapsible stock is effective to 200M. A 7" barrel is good enough for 50-100M and would be more effective with specific ammo for the short barrel. Smaller calibres are less effective on flesh but have their place in the paramilitary. If these guys are non-infantry and don't train with their weapons then you wont be able to offset smaller calibres with shot placement. If the most compact versions of effective guns are still too bulky for a soldier's MOS then have other soldiers nearby fully tooled-up and the non-infantry guys with similar weapons within easy reach. If they go out by themselves then they tool-up for the likely threat. If the cap fits, wear it.

One last comment, your 'unit policy' of deferring to knives in a CQB gunfight is utterly inconceivable - 'Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach' with a tomahawk. Your claims are steeped in ignorance. I don't trust them.

[stanc]

We also had a unit policy of dropping our weapons to slings then going to steel (knives for the most part) if we were over ran. Under 10 ft we risked shooting each other. So knives were better. One of our guys carried a Tomahawk and used it against the Tabliban. Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach. Scared the crap out of the rest of them.

Outside the wire you want a rifle and knives.

I hope you'll understand my finding that report of questionable credibility. I mean, you have enemy personnel with AK's spraying bullets at you and your buddies, and you're so concerned with the possibility of fratricide that you intentionally stop using your most effective weapon???

[LRRPF52]

One of the things I noticed was that while I was issued an M9 in Afghanistan, generally outside the wire we carried rifles. The M9 was for having a weapon on base (FOP). We also had a unit policy of dropping our weapons to slings then going to steel (knives for the most part) if we were over ran. Under 10 ft we risked shooting each other. So knives were better. One of our guys carried a Tomahawk and used it against the Tabliban. Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach. Scared the crap out of the rest of them.

Outside the wire you want a rifle and knives.

I gotta tell you, I've seen and heard of some pretty absurd things, but this one is raising my flag just a bit.

[n9nwo]

I hope you'll understand my finding that report of questionable credibility. I mean, you have enemy personnel with AK's spraying bullets at you and your buddies, and you're so concerned with the possibility of fratricide that you intentionally stop using your most effective weapon???

Within 10 ft, the rifle is not the most effective weapon. A pistol might be.

[n9nwo]

...and make a cappuccino latte.

Knives at 5 paces and 300M guns that fit on the belt. This thread is more Star Trek than reality.

A 5.56mm 10.5" AR with a collapsible stock is effective to 200M. A 7" barrel is good enough for 50-100M and would be more effective with specific ammo for the short barrel. Smaller calibres are less effective on flesh but have their place in the paramilitary. If these guys are non-infantry and don't train with their weapons then you wont be able to offset smaller calibres with shot placement. If the most compact versions of effective guns are still too bulky for a soldier's MOS then have other soldiers nearby fully tooled-up and the non-infantry guys with similar weapons within easy reach. If they go out by themselves then they tool-up for the likely threat. If the cap fits, wear it.

One last comment, your 'unit policy' of deferring to knives in a CQB gunfight is utterly inconceivable - 'Sliced one insurgent from chest to stomach' with a tomahawk. Your claims are steeped in ignorance. I don't trust them.

One thing to remember is logistics. We can have a pistol or a PDW but not both. the problem is that the more systems you have then the more ammo has to be brought into theater. We are attempting to have less systems, not more.

I was in Saudi for Desert Shield, Storm and Return. When I left there was 43 sq. miles of ammunition being prepared to ship back to the states. That is like having a pile of ammo on every block in Chicago. We had to much specialized stuff. Thus the Army and Marines are looking at ways to have few types of weapons so that they can bring more ammo for the ones that they have. Thus the need for 6.5mm cartridge to replace both the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51. And merging the three cannon rounds into one (get rid of the 20mm and 30mm in favor of the 25mm).

[stanc]

One thing to remember is logistics. We can have a pistol or a PDW but not both. the problem is that the more systems you have then the more ammo has to be brought into theater.

The ammo commonality issue can be resolved in either of two ways:

1. Have the PDW and service pistol be the same caliber.

2. Have the PDW and service rifle be the same caliber.

[ahillock]

One thing to remember is logistics. We can have a pistol or a PDW but not both. the problem is that the more systems you have then the more ammo has to be brought into theater. We are attempting to have less systems, not more.

What about the 5.7x28? Still seems like the best bet nowadays for PDW + pistol combo. FN P90 + FN Five-seven.

[ahillock]

We don't need pistols for most of the duty positions that carry pistols, because pistols are about worthless for pretty much everyone in the military except investigators and a few units in the SOF community, and the modern handgun/sidearm needs to be brought into the 21st Century as well, not stuck in the rut of the 20th Century.

"The fastest reload is the transition to secondary weapon system."

You run into a malfunction or complete stoppage, it is nice to have a secondary weapon system like a carry pistol to rely upon until you can hunker down behind cover and figure out what is happening with your rifle.

[Klem]

One thing to remember is logistics. We can have a pistol or a PDW but not both. the problem is that the more systems you have then the more ammo has to be brought into theater. We are attempting to have less systems, not more.

I was in Saudi for Desert Shield, Storm and Return. When I left there was 43 sq. miles of ammunition being prepared to ship back to the states. That is like having a pile of ammo on every block in Chicago. We had to much specialized stuff. Thus the Army and Marines are looking at ways to have few types of weapons so that they can bring more ammo for the ones that they have. Thus the need for 6.5mm cartridge to replace both the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51. And merging the three cannon rounds into one (get rid of the 20mm and 30mm in favor of the 25mm).

OK that's enough, let me transition to plain speak....What utter rubbish. Your lack of experience leaks out of everything you have said. I don't know what your provenance is but it's not what you are implying.

[Klem]

"The fastest reload is the transition to secondary weapon system."

You run into a malfunction or complete stoppage, it is nice to have a secondary weapon system like a carry pistol to rely upon until you can hunker down behind cover and figure out what is happening with your rifle.

Agree

This thread reminds me of the old saying, 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'

[LR1955]

"The fastest reload is the transition to secondary weapon system."

You run into a malfunction or complete stoppage, it is nice to have a secondary weapon system like a carry pistol to rely upon until you can hunker down behind cover and figure out what is happening with your rifle.

AH:

I would debate that statement. The last time I did one of these drills, the procedure was to do a visual inspection at a minimum before swinging the carbine around all the other crap you are carrying in order to get to your pistol. The intent was to make sure that you had a problem before going for a pistol. And before swinging it, we tried to make it safe. Not all of the time did the carbine cooperate and clear some bit of gear, which meant you had to clear it from what ever it was stuck on and swing it around again. Then you had to draw, sometimes charge, and engage. Took way less time to change a magazine.

Best thing is to maintain your primary weapon.

LR55