PDWs...and other small arms.

[stanc]

Top picture is an old one. Three color desert fatigues I believe.

Right you are. I wasn't paying attention to the uniforms, which in most of the photos were either woodland, 3-color desert, or ACUs.

Only two pics showed current camo. One can be seen here: http://www.hatchetsandaxes.com/testimonials

[LRRPF52]

This discussion of PDWs certainly has cut a wide swath. There appears to be a lot of passion about slings and knives and tomahawks and pistols, that is for sure -- but the question remains what is a PDW, and what role does it fill, and what will it replace if anything.

Here are the classifications of PDWs as I see them:

Pistols (not a suitable form of PDW in my book, maybe ok in others, but straight-walled pistol cartridges are weak performers, and will be even more so going into the future without generational leaps in propellant and projectile technology for them)

SMGs: Generally pistol caliber, suffer the same issues, but are easier to aim with the stock. Outdated 20th Century instrument of war.

1990s-era PDWs: This is where several NATO members recognized the failings of pistols and SMGs, and sought to replace them with better cartridges and weapons systems. Belgium developed the 5.7x28 PDW cartridge for the FiveSeven Pistol and P90 PDW, while Germany developed the 4.6x30 PDW for the HK MP7 PDW. Bill Alexander actually worked on several projects with the UK MoD, including .224 Boz in Glocks and MP5s, which spit a 50gr projectile out at 2500fps IIRC. It was never adopted by the UK for some reason. It would be nice to have Bill chime in on it.

As we are now well into the 21st Century, I see a lot of old school designs with new packaging on them, often based on the AR15 receiver arrangement, but chambered in uninspiring 9mm, but with some better human interface than the MP5 ever had.

We can do much bette than this, starting with the cartridge. Since the military isn't asking for it, I'm not sure how you would get the ball rolling on a 21st Century PDW with funding, but I would like to see 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP relegated to the 20th Century trash bin, to be honest. Very unimpressive fight stoppers most of the time according to statistical analyses covering thousands of different shooting incidents with them on unarmored civilians.

I envision a new PDW that has near-rifle performance, in a small package, that is streamlined and compact, that can be worn on a belt without being a snag hazard.

[wganz]

MY! how things have changed since I got out in 1984 and we had just done the greens/khakai to BDU conversion. LBE with a buttpack that flopped around madly. Having 9mm ammo and 1911 pistols since Congress got tired of the Army dragging out the conversion to 9mm. Strange days.

Back to topic, a mil spec version of the KelTec RDB but with a 12.5" barrel in 5.56 NATO would be have an OAL of about 22".

BTW. My LGS told me that as a 'preferred customer', they'd get me a RDB Survival in 6.5 Grendel for under $700.

[stanc]

Am interested in your view of PDW's from a historical perspective. No doubt this has been seriously considered before.

Yeah, it's not only been considered before, a PDW was actually adopted and fielded: The M1 carbine.

But, while the M1 carbine was a good first effort, it was considerably bigger and heavier than would later be desired.

In the late-1960s, both the Air Force and Army showed some interest in the concept. Colt developed the SCAMP and IMP machine pistols (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/...re.366028/).

Then in the late-1980s, the PDW concept was revived when the Army published the Small Arms Master Plan. However, they never seemed to know exactly what it was they wanted, so the quest for a PDW didn't go anywhere.

Other armies have actually adopted weapons of this class, though. Some examples:

Poland fielded the PM63, a compact 9x18 SMG (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/submachi...pm-63-rak/).



[video=youtube;HglasZ-0Mgc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HglasZ-0Mgc[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HglasZ-0Mgc



Portugal uses the B&T MP9 as a PDW.

[stanc]

Germany adopted the H&K MP7, although they seem to use it in the SMG role, rather than as a PDW. (Note that service pistols are worn, in addition to carrying the MP7.)







I have personally done limited testing of a compact 9mm SMG (SWD M11/Nine), to try to determine the validity of the PDW concept for myself.


Firing 3-rd bursts @ 25 meters, hit probability was significantly better versus a 9mm service pistol (M9 Beretta), when trying to engage the target as quickly as possible.

Is the foregoing what you wanted in asking for my "view of PDW's from a historical perspective"? If not, please clarify.

[Klem]

Transitioning to handgun in a stoppage.

My experience is...Transition to handgun works and is still a practised SOP but only to be used if you are in a close quarter gunfight. If the bad guys are beyond the effective range of the handgun then drop down or move to cover and fix the stoppage on your primary weapon (while communicating to your team, 'stoppage' or 'changing mags'). Bearing in mind a long gun smashes a handgun in accuracy and effectiveness so your primary weapon gets all the love. If you don't practise to make this fast and smooth then probably best not to carry a handgun.

[stanc]

As we are now well into the 21st Century, I see a lot of old school designs with new packaging on them, often based on the AR15 receiver arrangement, but chambered in uninspiring 9mm...

IIRC, back around 2005 the Commandant's Notes in Infantry magazine called for use of SBR versions of the M4 carbine (like the Navy's 10-inch barrel Mk18) to be used as a PDW.

[stanc]

Am interested in your view of PDW's from a historical perspective. No doubt this has been seriously considered before.

Yeah, it's not only been considered before, a PDW was actually adopted and fielded: The M1 carbine.

But, while the M1 carbine was a good first effort, it was considerably bigger and heavier than would later be desired.

In the late-1960s, both the Air Force and Army showed some interest in the concept. Colt developed the SCAMP and IMP machine pistols (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/...re.366028/).

Then in the late-1980s, the PDW concept was revived when the Army published the Small Arms Master Plan. However, they never seemed to know exactly what it was they wanted, so the quest for a PDW didn't go anywhere.

Other armies have actually adopted weapons of this class, though. Some examples:

Poland fielded the PM63, a compact 9x18 SMG (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/submachi...pm-63-rak/).



[video=youtube;HglasZ-0Mgc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HglasZ-0Mgc[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HglasZ-0Mgc



Portugal uses the B&T MP9 as a PDW.

[stanc]

Germany adopted the H&K MP7, although they seem to use it in the SMG role, rather than as a PDW. (Note that service pistols are worn, in addition to carrying the MP7.)







I have personally done limited testing of a compact 9mm SMG (SWD M11/Nine), to try to determine the validity of the PDW concept for myself.


Firing 3-rd bursts @ 25 meters, hit probability was significantly better versus a 9mm service pistol (M9 Beretta), when trying to engage the target as quickly as possible.

Is the foregoing what you wanted in asking for my "view of PDW's from a historical perspective"? If not, please clarify.

[Klem]

Tomahawks in combat.

I have seen them used in a combat setting but only by one or two larger-than-life characters. They weigh a fair bit and take space on the carrier so it's not universal. They get more use impressing mates, especially those who don't have one with how they can chop-up car bodies and tree limbs. Good for intimidation value and when you are bored. I'm retired now and got this tomahawk for hunting but it's a field axe with a quick-draw Kydex holster. It weighs 2lb and if you carry it for any distance you realise why they are not more popular. Never heard of any stories of them actually used against people (until this thread...).

[LR1955]

Germany adopted the H&K MP7, although they seem to use it in the SMG role, rather than as a PDW. (Note that service pistols are worn, in addition to carrying the MP7.)







I have personally done limited testing of a compact 9mm SMG (SWD M11/Nine), to try to determine the validity of the PDW concept for myself.


Firing 3-rd bursts @ 25 meters, hit probability was significantly better versus a 9mm service pistol (M9 Beretta), when trying to engage the target as quickly as possible.

Is the foregoing what you wanted in asking for my "view of PDW's from a historical perspective"? If not, please clarify.

Stan:

Exactly. Right at your finger tips, too! Impressive.

OK guys -- there you go! PDW's. I recall in the late 80's that the US Mil wanted something for the CS and CSS other than a M-16A2 because of the conditions that the CS and CSS guys operated. TOC's, truck drivers, mechanics. Soldiers whose duty spaces were confined yet needed protection of some sort. Pistols were not a good consideration because of the time needed to make someone proficient with a pistol. Rifles were too big and bulky. Not hard qualifying with a sub gun and you don't need as much training to use one. As I can recall they were looking at that sub gun that had the magazine on top of the receiver. As others here have said -- 5.7 mm. Very short cartridge. I bet they decided against it because it would entail another round of ammo and another firearm with all the costs involved.

When I ended my work with units around five years ago, CS and CSS units were still using the M-16A2. In fact, for the conventional side, the only units who had the M-4 were the Infantry and Tankers. The Artillery guys could get them for deployments to Iraq but had to turn them in when they got back. This was fifteen years after the M-4 first made its appearance in SF and Rangers.

So some thirty years after the PDW notion, same, same.

LR55

[VASCAR2]

I've shot a Friend's 1911 in 22 TCM and if you could get an honest 2400 FPS out of a pistol the size of a Glock 20 with a folding wire stock I think this could be a decent PDW. Short 22 caliber cartridge similar to a 5.7X28 or 22 TCM get about 2000 FPS with 40 grain bullets (22 Hornet performance or less). The 22 TCM bullet is a very versatile bullet and a polymer frame pistol the size of a Glock 20/21 could be carried in a chest horster, hip or leg holster. Add a six inch barrel, a wire stock with red dot sight and a novice could make hits out to 100 yards plus. Current 22 caliber cartridges like 5.7 X 28 and 22 TCM just need a little more velocity IMHO. Even a 22 TCM have a flatter trajectory than a 9 MM.

Add the burst capability of a Glock 18 with a spare 25-30 round stick mag and I'll volunteer to test it.

Realistically I prefer packing a pistol for close range encounters and having a carbine available if things go bad. I feel real comfortable with a Glock 19 or 43 and my Tavor or 16" AR-15 in 5.56.

[LRRPF52]

IIRC, back around 2005 the Commandant's Notes in Infantry magazine called for use of SBR versions of the M4 carbine (like the Navy's 10-inch barrel Mk18) to be used as a PDW.

The M4 was originally intended to fulfill the role of a PDW for support troops, not direct combat arms units.

SF and other units within SOCOM had been purchasing Colt Commando variants like the 653, 723, 727, and 733 as COTS items through channels other than direct military sales through coordinated procurement like the Army, Marines, and USAF did normally.

As the XM4 became more of a reality off the foundation of the Colt 727 (often called the M16A2 carbine), most SOCOM units decided to replace the M16A2 with the M4A1. NSW had already been using 727s as their standard, while JSOC used 723s on the Army side, and 727s on the Navy side.

Once 75th Ranger Regiment and SF started using the M4A1 and ditched M16A2s, it trickled into all the units that were traditionally part of the Joint Rapid Deployment Forces or Light Infantry Combat Divisions, such as the 82nd Airborne, 101st, 25th, and 10th Mountain. This all happened in the 1990s, with SF and Rangers getting M4A1s in the early 1990s starting in 1994, while the conventional units got the M4 in 1997 forward, first in the Scout Platoons, then later in the line.

This was never the intent of the M4 program, but the natural evolution since it proved to be a superior option for dismounted and mounted combat arms soldiers across the board.

I still think the M4 is too large for a PDW for Combat Support and Combat Service Support troops, as LR1955 referred to. I also don't like a protruding magazine for their duty positions, which is why the box-shaped design with unconventional magazine arrangement makes a lot of sense.

The Knight's Armament PDW is a nice little package, but still a bit big for what I think will hit the spot.

[stanc]

I still think the M4 is too large for a PDW for Combat Support and Combat Service Support troops, as LR1955 referred to. I also don't like a protruding magazine for their duty positions, which is why the box-shaped design with unconventional magazine arrangement makes a lot of sense.

The reduced snag hazard of such a design would certainly be desirable for MOS's like tank crewmen, who have to clamber through small hatches. I'd really like to see further development of the concept, although I suspect that's rather unlikely to happen, what with the military's usually conservative mindset.

BTW, here's the statement I referred to earlier:

Our modernization efforts will emphasize key capabilities. We will focus on the light machine gun capability with product improvement of the M249 SAW and an improved personal defense weapon (PDW) capability.

This improved PDW capability includes focus in two areas – compact carbines and pistols. The compact carbine will be a weapon with longer range and greater lethality than a pistol. It will also be shorter and more maneuverable than either a rifle or a carbine. This weapon is intended specifically for vehicle drivers, aircrews, armored vehicle crews, engineers, construction teams, and other Soldiers whose primary duties require them to fight within smaller spaces, replacing the pistols or M16s these Soldiers carry. The M4 serves in this capacity now for some Soldiers, though the ultimate goal is for a more portable weapon than even the M4.

http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/mag...UN2006.pdf

Sounds like it may have been the impetus for the Colt SCW? http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Military/Pro...Weapon-SCW

[D.Davis]

Stanc, looks like colts XM177 with out the long FH with m4 upgrades. Dave.

[LRRPF52]

Everyone I've seen shot within 10ft had wounds that exceeded anything you could ever hope to get a pistol to produce.

10ft is plenty fine for the M4, especially M4A1 Block II with 10.25" suppressed.

Only guys that survived were because of modern US echelons of care and highly-trained medics, PAs, and trauma surgeons close to the battlefield, facilitated by quick MEDEVAC.

Of everyone I know that does this for a living, the 10" guns seem to be at the top of the list for urban DA raids.

Only time pistols are preferred is for very rare occasions that require more discretion, which is well outside the METL tasks of conventional units.

[hikfromstik]

STANC , I really wish HK would redo the MP5 10mm . The HK MP5K-PDW from the early 90's was a popular close quarters weapon of its day . I'm a big 10mm fan so I'm gonna go with it as my choice of pdw ammo . Lehigh defense has some impressive penetrator bullets that get close to 2000 fps from 5" barrel . Put it in a 10" barrel and it will surpass 2000fps . Some of the 9mm +p+ are impressive too . I agree that in these modern days that pistol rounds need a make over . The 5.7 , 4.6 etc...Need more oomph to win over people and some people don't like the kick of the 10mm , maybe in my lifetime we will see a major powder development to push the envelope.

[n9nwo]

Article on the NATO PDW standard. Requirement was to penetrate Soviet body armor at 150m.

I had read the PDW article by one of our members several years back. The Brugger & Thomet MP9 (TP9 is full auto) seems to be setting the standard. The 6.5x25 ammunition may be the next generation of pistol ammunition.
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=625

But the whole PDW market seems to have a Judge Dredd feel.

[stanc]

STANC , I really wish HK would redo the MP5 10mm . The HK MP5K-PDW from the early 90's was a popular close quarters weapon of its day . I'm a big 10mm fan so I'm gonna go with it as my choice of pdw ammo . Lehigh defense has some impressive penetrator bullets that get close to 2000 fps from 5" barrel . Put it in a 10" barrel and it will surpass 2000fps . Some of the 9mm +p+ are impressive too . I agree that in these modern days that pistol rounds need a make over . The 5.7 , 4.6 etc...Need more oomph to win over people and some people don't like the kick of the 10mm , maybe in my lifetime we will see a major powder development to push the envelope.

I've put a few rounds through a 9mm MP5. I like it a lot. Lightweight, easy to shoot well. Offers excellent hit probability. Essentially an update of the M1 carbine.

[video=youtube;3HIywR-m6RI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HIywR-m6RI[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HIywR-m6RI

I can't comment on the 10mm version. My experience with 10mm is limited to the Colt Delta Elite I owned for a brief period, and I no longer recall whether I disliked the pistol or the caliber (or both). :o

[stanc]

Article on the NATO PDW standard. Requirement was to penetrate Soviet body armor at 150m.

I had read the PDW article by one of our members several years back. The Brugger & Thomet MP9 (TP9 is full auto) seems to be setting the standard. The 6.5x25 ammunition may be the next generation of pistol ammunition. http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=625

I think the NATO CRISAT target is badly outdated. As best I can tell from the limited research I've done, the CRISAT target was created to simulate Soviet-era body armor.

Protection level of Russian body armor has reportedly been improved several times since the 1980s. The latest 6B43 and 6B45 vests have ceramic inserts that reportedly provide protection comparable to Western hard armor. http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_d...05162.html

Below: 6B43 body armor shot with 7.62x54R SVD sniper rifle @ 10 meters.

[video=youtube;SXvgDfE8g2w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXvgDfE8g2w[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXvgDfE8g2w



If it is desired to prepare for possible future war against the Russians, will any proposed PDW round be adequate to defeat their latest body armor?

Or will it be necessary to use the standard rifle/machine gun caliber?