New Cartridge Developments and Implications for Dismounted Infantry Soldiers

[Kswhitetails]

Ask yourself. The quoted post referenced the value and exception for mortars specifically in the previous sentences. I think it was skimmed? Not that I could blame anyone, this is page 13 of a good discussion.

[hdrolling]

Ask yourself. The quoted post referenced the value and exception for mortars specifically in the previous sentences. I think it was skimmed? Not that I could blame anyone, this is page 13 of a good discussion.

Oh no, I read it all. Still had to find a spot for a shameless "high angle hell" plug somewhere, I understood what he was saying.

[LRRPF52]

A lot of our military discussion here have often ended up with the conclusion that we need a much lighter, Platoon and even Squad-level mortar system.

These systems already exist, like iMortar.

[video=youtube;2vkHwLxhOgw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vkHwLxhOgw[/video]

Combine it with PGM, and warhead size is not as important, especially in semi-permissive ROE.

[Kswhitetails]

Oh no, I read it all. Still had to find a spot for a shameless "high angle hell" plug somewhere, I understood what he was saying.

Need a "like" button.

Shameless, indeed.

[BluntForceTrauma]

As a retired 11c Mortar man, I would have to disagree with this statement

Reminds me of a story Eugene Sledge told in his book With the Old Breed. On Peleliu, there was a group of Japanese massing for attack in a tightly enclosed rock ravine that no direct fires of any caliber could dislodge. Experienced mortarmen disregarded illogical order from inexperienced lieutenant and dropped a volley into the crevasse. Attack never came. Later found torn-up bodies of 40 to 50 japs. Problem solved.

[stanc]

Gents,

There has been healthy debate throughout the development of small arms in history regarding appropriate calibers and weapon designs. This is a pretty hot topic in the Grendel community since the Grendel seems to offer external trajectory ballistics that are very similar to 7.62 NATO and some of the common .308 Match loads, but out of a much smaller rifle/carbine package with significantly less recoil, and increased ammunition carrying capacity.

That naturally has led some to propose that we could replace both the 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO cartridges for dismounted Infantry troops.

I personally do not see a need to replace 5.56 NATO as it has so many advantages that are beneficial to riflemen in an Infantry Squad, however...

I do see a huge need to replace the entire SAW/5.56 system and the M240/7.62 NATO system, since they hold squads and platoons back from being maneuverable. With the recent developments in efficient cartridge & bullet design, I think we're ready to start pushing in the direction of a new Multi-Role Light Machinegun concept with a cartridge that is smaller and lighter than 7.62 NATO, with better ballistic potential as far as trajectory is concerned.

It looks like the Army agrees. https://taskandpurpose.com/army-next-gen...ad-weapon/

P.S. Better take your blood pressure meds before reading.

[pinzgauer]

It looks like the Army agrees. https://taskandpurpose.com/army-next-gen...ad-weapon/

P.S. Better take your blood pressure meds before reading.

So what's funny: MARSOC has said publicly that the M27 offers no advantages and multiple disadvantages to them. They'll keep their M4's and M249's:

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/yo...-any-m27s/

“As of right now, the M27 doesn’t provide an additional capability or advantage over the M4A1 with SOCOM upper receiver group as the standard rifle carried by Raiders,” Maj. Nicholas Mannweiler, a Marine Corps Special Operations Command spokesman, told Marine Corps Times

And

"the M249′s volume of fire provides a greater tactical benefit than the advantages provided by the M27,” Mannweiler said

[n9nwo]

A lot of our military discussion here have often ended up with the conclusion that we need a much lighter, Platoon and even Squad-level mortar system.

These systems already exist, like iMortar.

[video=youtube;2vkHwLxhOgw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vkHwLxhOgw[/video]

Combine it with PGM, and warhead size is not as important, especially in semi-permissive ROE.

Have we dropped the 81mm? I was under the impression that we now field only the 60mm and the 120mm

[stanc]

I don't think the 2nd Amendment covers mortars.

Not even 18th century mortars? :p

[video=youtube;F5Iovqmw6A0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Iovqmw6A0[/video]

[stanc]

6.5 SOCOM = .260 REM





http://www.defensereview.com/pcp-ammo-po...ck-videos/

[LRRPF52]

That's got my attention.

30% reduction in soldier's load plus .260 Remington performance, and you have something.

The mags are still big, but weight reduction means something for sure.

[Sticks]

Funny.

Can't use lead bullets anymore, but by god, we will litter the battlefield with plastic that will never ever corrode away.

[stanc]

Funny.

Can't use lead bullets anymore, but by god, we will litter the battlefield with plastic that will never ever corrode away.

Worries about littering the battlefield with plastic cartridge cases.

[rickt300]

So we still need eco-friendly?

I agree, its tougher to do, but its still doable. In fact, a solid copper bullet would work. 180 grain Barnes with a BC or .473 can be loaded easily to 2700 FPS with easily available powders. Using the newer Superperformance powders, I'd bet you could get over 2800 out of them, at standard length.

Bumping to 200 grains loses several hundred feet per second, but is doable, with 2600 FPS velocities at standard length.

Eco friendly just cracks me up as we are talking about the imminent destruction of human tissue before and after the penetration of various barriers. That said Okinawa was literally covered with bullets fired in WWII, and this I saw in the 70's. Anyone ever hear anything about the ecosystem of Okinawa being damaged by large amounts of lead? When I was there most of the war damage had been grown over though there was still plenty of munitions to be found if you wanted to look.

[Popeye212]

Funny.

Can't use lead bullets anymore, but by god, we will litter the battlefield with plastic that will never ever corrode away.

Now you really can't expect em to think past the lead thing. Hey look what we got rid of the lead...yay us go green. Now despite the fact that as you said you are littering plastic all over the place that is GASP!! made with OIL!! Big oil profits again liberal heads explode. They just can't seem think very far ahead..God bless em...ROFL

[hill37]

This ammo seems to be ahead of Shell Shock cased rifle ammo. We should hear something about Shell Shocks .223 cases soon. If they are on schedule. The 9mm seems legit though.

[stanc]

Eco friendly just cracks me up as we are talking about the imminent destruction of human tissue before and after the penetration of various barriers. That said Okinawa was literally covered with bullets fired in WWII, and this I saw in the 70's. Anyone ever hear anything about the ecosystem of Okinawa being damaged by large amounts of lead? When I was there most of the war damage had been grown over though there was still plenty of munitions to be found if you wanted to look.

Now you really can't expect em to think past the lead thing.

<sigh> Apparently we can't expect some gun people to get past the lead thing, either.

1. The switch to lead-free bullets was never about concern over polluting the battlefield. It was about reducing pollution on US military firing ranges.
2. Lead-free M80A1 and M855A1 ammo delivers superior terminal performance in both soft and hard targets compared to lead-core M80 and M855.

Lead is not the best choice of material for bullets in general-purpose combat ammo.

[hill37]

what do you think the best material would be?

[stanc]

what do you think the best material would be?

Steel. It gives the best combination of cost, availability, performance, etc, and meets the requirements for lead-free construction.

But, if you're not limited to just one material, the two-piece (steel tip / copper slug) construction of the EPR bullet is hard to beat.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I like steel-tip, lead core. Both cheap and ballistically sound.