New Marine Corps weapon to replace SAW

[RangerRick]

Has there ever been a design with two mag wells so you can be firing from one while changing mags on the other between bursts?

Of course, given enough mags, a well trained gunner should be able to do a mag change in the delay between bursts and not skip a beat.

RR

[Observer]

Thanks for fixing the link stanc, Caveman Og here can't handle anything which doesn't involve banging 2 rocks together. Ugg....

Interesting idea Rick, possibly workable, though you'll need something to prevent both wells from feeding at the same time and jamming it up. Not to mention earplugs when the Marines complain that the "Marine" that a gun like that was designed for is an octopus. lol

And yes, the quick change of mag during a fire pause is the only thing that even makes using a 30 round mag for supression fire even basically workable. I can just see Ollie the Octopus being transfered to the Marines with this new need for soldiers with 4 arms or more.

LRRP, I'd love 600 rounds ready to use at all times too, I'm just trying to figure out a way to carry a decent amount of ammo without having to look like someone's covered in mags as well as the convenience of reaching the mag/drum during a fight. The drums on L/R hip seem a foregone conclusion, but the 30 rounders can definately be pushed up to 8 mags on vest, so it could be 180 rounds in drums (2x60 rounds on hips, 1 on gun) and 240 rounds in STANAG mags, 420 rounds total. Still short compared to 600 rounds, but not terribly short. Of course, if it were 75 round drums, it'd be better, but I'm keeping to 60 as a workable number, just in case. What's your ideal of an ammo loadout using drums/mags?

[LRRPF52]

This is one of the things I'm not too fond of with the SF60rd mags...their height. If I were an IAR gunner, I would use deeper SAW pouches on the left and right of my load, and 4 AK mag pouches up front. I used to make a custom SAW pouch with elastic retainers for all my batteries, chem lights up under the top flap, permanent markers, dry erase markers, camping spoon, electrician's tape, etc. They served the utilitarian role of being able to carry any magazine, drum, or linked belt of 5.56, as well as 7.62 if needed, and they fit AK mags too. I mostly used them for admin-type stuff since I was always in leadership positions when I made them.

I still think the Multicam Tactical Tailor SAW pouches will fit 3 SF60rd mags per x 2 pouches = 360 rds, + 4 AK mag pouches with 2 SF60s per = 240rds. 240rds in the AK mag pouches + 360rds in the SAW would give you 600 rounds, but that is dependent on being issued 10 SF60's. It also leaves basically no room for PVS-14's, or any admin crap, FAK could still be on one of the rear hips, Camelbak is on back, small ICOM or individual radio might be on support-side shoulder...it would definitely be a man's load, not a boy's.

More importantly, if I was assigned the IAR, I would go over my reloading drills in the prone in crap terrain (rocks, bricks, debris), on a knee behind concealment/cover, laying on my left side, and laying on my right side. With the special mags, you really need to train for both emergency reloads and tactical reloads with stowage of the mags with retention back into the pouches, without jacking up your load scheme. I always carry loaded mags lips-down, and empties lips-up.

When we tried the CMAGs in the Middle East, the dust made them totally unreliable. I wish they would be a solid performer in adverse conditions, but so far no-dice.

[LRRPF52]

I've been watching the reviews on the SF60 magazine, and my apprehension about its reliability seem to be confirmed: Dropped mags seize the mag up so that ammo can't be used immediately...malfunctions occur right when it hands off to the next set of 30rds with the teeter-totter coupling of the followers, and capacity-check induced malfs when shooters press down on the rounds to check if it's topped off. These are very similar problems the Finnish Army had with the coffin mags for the Suomi Kp31 in 1939, resulting in it being banned from use on the frontline, with a preference for the 71rd drums, then stick mags.

[LRRPF52]

I read some feedback from a Marine who was in a Scout Sniper Platoon in Afghanistan recently, and he said they still chose to take the SAW's out on patrol for the firepower over the IAR, which he believes saved at least one guy who was hit in an initial burst during an ambush. The volume of fire they were able to distribute after that initial contact was such that the guy that was hit could be evacuated, and they were able to get out of the kill zone after establishing a decent amount of suppressive fire in response to the ambush. He indicated that the IAR would most likely have facilitated a less favorable outcome.

[QuadCam]

[video=youtube;GJM8asnj6JY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJM8asnj6JY[/video]

I'd love to have a few of those 60 round 5.45 magazines.

[adamjp]

I have to agree with LRRPF52 when he contents that the 'big' magazines distributed within the section will be used BY the section and won't be available for the gunner when they are needed.

The Australian Army made a light machine gun out of the FN-FAL called the L2A1. It was essentially a heavy barrel with a split forend that acted as a bipod (similar to how a Steyr Scout works today). With a cyclic rate of ~800rpm it was a reasonable weapon for some duties. It was issued with a case of 10 x 30round magazines and a pouch for the gunner.

Standard practice was to patrol with a 20rd in the gun otherwise your nuts kept getting smacked by the long magazine. The gunner carried three magazines, other members of the section had the remainder. For some dumbass reason I always found that the other section members always used the 30rd magazines FIRST in a contact leaving the gun 'down' all the time whilst the gunner and his no.2 were reloading their 30rd magazines. It was such a dumb idea the weapon was quickly relegated to support troops only - even though it was effectively the same as the weapon it replaced, the British BREN. I used when I was injected into support troops to stiffen them during their annual infantry training.

Australian F89 Minimi (SAW equivalent) are more reliable than those you speak of (in fact most other nations report better reliability - maybe the US has snuck in some 'improvements') but I think it could be better for the weight you must carry around. Going the other way with a 'upspec AR' is not a winner IMHO. My experience suggests that a support weapon that works off magazines is doomed to failure as it just does not provide the goods when you really need it.

[Schwag173]

I think someone is trying to recreate the BAR in a modern version. The (old) Marines loved the BAR. Personally, I don't think this is a good idea. The very features that ultimately spelled the demise of the BAR design are front and center with the M27; magazine-fed, no quick-change barrel. I'm not even sure it would find a good niche in the Special Ops community. Reads like a boondoggle to me. We'll see.

[adamjp]

I think someone is trying to recreate the BAR in a modern version.

In an American context the BAR, British Commonwealth would say it is the BREN (or Vickers K).

Either way, it was a design adaptation necessary at the time, but made obsolete by the disintegrating link fielded with the MG42. I once had the opportunity to use the MG3 machine guns we had supplied as part of the Leopard tank buy in the mid-1970s. They were a well thought out, stripped down to just enough, version of what a MMG should be.

[stanc]

I read some feedback from a Marine who was in a Scout Sniper Platoon in Afghanistan recently, and he said they still chose to take the SAW's out on patrol for the firepower over the IAR, which he believes saved at least one guy who was hit in an initial burst during an ambush. The volume of fire they were able to distribute after that initial contact was such that the guy that was hit could be evacuated, and they were able to get out of the kill zone after establishing a decent amount of suppressive fire in response to the ambush.

A belt-fed does provide a high volume of fire. Reloading sure is slow, though.

[video=youtube;uZ2SWWDt8Wg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2SWWDt8Wg[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2SWWDt8Wg

Note the Vietnam (spray n pray) flashback, 5:56-6:02 :eek:

[LRRPF52]

Now you see why the SAW is hated. Firepower+, reliability -. If you actually train to do your reloads, you can be much faster than that. Also notice the mistake of not placing the belt on the feed tray after he cleared one of the numerous malfs he had. Also notice how the nut sacks and soft cases were retained in the pouches of his kit. They needed something with 7.62 performance, but lighter weight than the SAW in that scenario. Another missing thing was someone to coordinate and direct fires. A key leader's job is to make sure his unit doesn't expend all their ammo, and that effective fire is being distributed on the enemy, not pray and spray. While watching this, I was thinking "loophole" the whole time. Somebody in charge find a loophole, and direct fires from it. Sniper Periscope would have been nice too.

Without knowing the full details of this unit's composure, I'll stop my Monday morning QB rant. They definitely had enemy that wanted to play, and felt safe doing so with the natural boundary of the river between them, & plenty of cover and concealment on the other side.

[Variable]

Yeah, those frickin snaps gave me the heebie jeebies clear back here. First I get scared, then I get mad, then I do something stupid if I don't try hard to think about it. Fortunately I've only been shot at twice on purpose (not counting scuds LOL). If I was over there I don't know how I'd take to getting shot at frequently (or even once in a while!). I'm getting even more hateful in some ways these days. I'm kinda feeling like nuking them from orbit is a good option.

I won't guess what might have helped them better, but I think they were having a hard time actually locating the sheet head who was doing it. Maybe a thermal might've helped, but they might have been getting sniped at from a loophole as well.

[LRRPF52]

Now imagine that video as if the SAW gunner had been issued an IAR instead.

Whoever was shooting at them was dialing in on the dust being kicked up from their muzzle blast on the wall, which was also obscuring the field of view. As a SAW gunner, I would have displaced between bursts, which he did once. They could have done the helmet routine as one person watches from concealment for the muzzle flash and or movement of enemy, then directs DMRs, SAWs, and Grenadiers on target.

[pinzgauer]

It was interesting to me how the SAW gunner was using his ruck for reloads. Presumably he had used all the ones in his web gear already.

Also, I counted at least three mag tosses in the second part of the video, which pmag fans in a previous forum thread indicate no longer happens. The concern being- alloy mags bend if dropped on a lip, but can be straightened. Pmags can break if dropped, which put them out of service. Also they tend to spring more and "self unload".

[Variable]

It was interesting to me how the SAW gunner was using his ruck for reloads. Presumably he had used all the ones in his web gear already.

Also, I counted at least three mag tosses in the second part of the video, which pmag fans in a previous forum thread indicate no longer happens. The concern being- alloy mags bend if dropped on a lip, but can be straightened. Pmags can break if dropped, which put them out of service. Also they tend to spring more and "self unload".

What? You mean you don't pull the dust cover (the large pile of them in your pocket for these occasions) out, pop it on and then toss your pmag??? I'm shocked.LOL J/K!!!

[Variable]

Now imagine that video as if the SAW gunner had been issued an IAR instead.

Whoever was shooting at them was dialing in on the dust being kicked up from their muzzle blast on the wall, which was also obscuring the field of view. As a SAW gunner, I would have displaced between bursts, which he did once. They could have done the helmet routine as one person watches from concealment for the muzzle flash and or movement of enemy, then directs DMRs, SAWs, and Grenadiers on target.

Yeah I see what you mean. I also still wonder how much a can would help with the dust? I spent my time in the talc, but I didn't have a can then either. I fully understand they come with their own issues, but damn that dust sucks!

We need some kind of dust signature test.

[LRRPF52]

Whoever the enemy was in this case was exercising more fire discipline-probably because they weren't carrying 210 plus rounds for guys with AK's, or several cans of 7.62x54 for the PKM's. My inclination in those types of scenarios is to take a tactical pause, develop the ability to observe where the threat is so he can be fixed, then posture the most appropriate weapons/shooters to deal with that threat, with competent leadership guidance.

I didn't see any evidence of RPG use, so these guys were either under-equipped, or maybe stalking the RPG gunner(s) into place. That wall wouldn't be much cover in that case, but it looked like they were being subject to sporadic small arms fire that wasn't high volume by any means. Someone had the corner of the wall dialed-in though.

The DMR's with cans would have been great in this scenario, provided they could find a position to overwatch from, which can't be determined from this video.

[adamjp]

The only thing I really observed from that video was an absence of fire discipline by the gunnner and control from the Platoon leader.

They did not use their firepower to move into a position from which they could dominate the contact.

[stanc]

...notice the mistake of not placing the belt on the feed tray after he cleared one of the numerous malfs he had.

Yes, I did catch that. He actually did place the belt on the tray, but then inadvertantly pulled it off before closing the top cover.

They needed something with 7.62 performance, but lighter weight than the SAW in that scenario.

Explain, please. It looks to me like in this particular scenario he'd have been worse off with a 6.5 LMG. By my count, he fired 712 rounds - 3x200rd belts, 1x100rd belt, and 12rds of the 2nd 100rd belt - then refrained from further shooting (presumably to keep his last 288 rds in reserve).

That makes a total of 1000 rounds he had. For the same volume and packing, he would have had only 750 rounds of 6.5 Grendel. Which means he could've shot only 462 rounds - 3x150rd belts, plus 12rds of a 75rd belt - before reaching his reserve level, a considerable reduction in suppressive fire capability.

It was interesting to me how the SAW gunner was using his ruck for reloads. Presumably he had used all the ones in his web gear already.

The first two reloads were 200rd soft packs from his pouches. It did appear as if his remaining supply was 100rd "nut sacks" in the bag that was thrown to him.

Also, I counted at least three mag tosses in the second part of the video, which pmag fans in a previous forum thread indicate no longer happens.

Yeah, I found that enlightening. While not one of the P-Mag fans you note, I think I was one who questioned if such mag tossing actually occurs. :o

[LRRPF52]

Combined with fire discipline, and aimed controlled bursts on target indicators, the high sectional density bullets would make certain mud walls into only "concealment", while they are in fact "cover" with 5.56.

When he started feeding from his Camelbak, he had used up many of the bags on his fighting load already by praying and spraying. I would see this a lot when an M60, SAW, or 240 gunner that was tired from carrying all the weight finally got a chance to return fire. There is often a correlation in the gunner's mind of weight he has to carry and the opportunity to shed the weight in contact, which goes against fire discipline, aimed fire, and logic. It also increases your likelihood of becoming an RPG, PKM, or SVD magnet that is easy to hone in on because of your muzzle flash and constant disruption of the dust or debris around the gun's muzzle, which is painfully clear in this video. Because the gun is so heavy, guys are less inclined to displace after a few bursts, so they stay in the same position and roll the dice each time they pop up.