MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt?

[grayfox]

The mini-me's of Boston are after James Bond's support folks... again!!!!!

[grayfox]

Boston's Spectre raises its ugly head!!!!!

[LRRPF52]

Here’s the other conundrum these idiots out of the Boston office didn’t think about, but is typical of ATF.

They received and registered Federal Excise Taxes on every single one of those Honey Badger pistols.

For a pistol, the excise tax is 10% of the sale price, which were all paid.

Now that the Boston Field Office has declared these already-regulated and taxed pistols as Short-Barreled Rifles, they illegally re-categorized them and have engaged in fraud ex post facto via administrative error or intent.

Notice that Q also manufactures an actual SBR that is a separate SKU from the Honey Badger pistol, the only difference being the telescoping stock, as you can see in my first post in the thread.

The ATF can’t claim that they don’t know, since the Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax has already been paid at the pistol rate of 10% on every Q HB pistol.

It is against the law for them to convert pistols into another firearms class once they have been transferred as pistols.

I predict that Treasury is going to step in again even harder this time, and place more restrictions or penalties on the offending agitators.

They need to fire people and charge them with crimes, because this is not within the reasonable standards of performance of one’s duties.

"Special Agent Brady, did you intent to engage in fraud with the Federal Excise Taxes, or did you not know that these were already classified by ATF Firearms Technology Branch as pistols? I’ll remind you, ignorance of the law is not a defense, especially for an agent of your stature and position."

[StoneHendge]

I suspect the name Q is what triggered these rogue agents.

Ha!

I think the point I've been trying to make and probably haven't been doing a good job of is that the ATF is a Law Enforcement Agency responsible for enforcing laws on the books, one of which is the Firearms Controls Act.

How they interpret it is different than how a court may interpret it. And if a politician says "how are you allowing that? - the Dayton shooter used a pistol brace and shouldered it" we know what's next.

LRRPF52, all the arguments you have laid out about the benefits of braces in general are ones that they can make in court. Hopefully they do and it goes all the way to the Supreme Court and addresses the regulation of SBRs. All the arguments you have made about yourself are ones that you hopefully never have to pay a lawyer to make for you in court. That was really the risk I didn't want to take - especially if I had an anti-gun prosecutor/ judge / jury.

[LRRPF52]

Ha!

I think the point I've been trying to make and probably haven't been doing a good job of is that the ATF is a Law Enforcement Agency responsible for enforcing laws on the books, one of which is the Firearms Controls Act.

How they interpret it is different than how a court may interpret it. And if a politician says "how are you allowing that? - the Dayton shooter used a pistol brace and shouldered it" we know what's next.

LRRPF52, all the arguments you have laid out about the benefits of braces in general are ones that they can make in court. Hopefully they do and it goes all the way to the Supreme Court and addresses the regulation of SBRs. All the arguments you have made about yourself are ones that you hopefully never have to pay a lawyer to make for you in court. That was really the risk I didn't want to take - especially if I had an anti-gun prosecutor/ judge / jury.

It’s kind of hard to even start an argument in that direction when there’s an NFA item on the end of my muzzle.

For the way I shoot long guns, they would have to create a new class of firearms if they’re going to start regulating based on method of use.

That new class would be “chest-fired weapons”. If you look at where I index the toe of the butt on a rifle, it’s medial from my nipple even. We’re talking about 6-7” away from the deltoid.

In my State, you can’t even go to the range anymore without running into multiple people with suppressors.

Thousands of people have pistols with stabilizing braces, and those types of AR15s and other pistol designs are on the shelves of major sporting goods stores. At least they were before the buying frenzy.

Boston field office is the kid doing its own thing in this matter.

[montana]

https://www.fracaction.org/post/chairman...FGj5Ee8cAI Lindsey Graham's letter to the ATF in March. I'm guessing they think the power is going to turn to the dark side.

[NugginFutz]

Here is a link to the response sent to the ATF by Q's attorney.

[FONT=&amp]https://www.liveqordie.com/wp-content/up...ame=iossmf

Seems the Boston ATF has really put the cart in front of the horse and stepped in the muffin.

Q doesn't seem willing to just roll over on this...[/FONT]

[StoneHendge]

It’s kind of hard to even start an argument in that direction when there’s an NFA item on the end of my muzzle.

For the way I shoot long guns, they would have to create a new class of firearms if they’re going to start regulating based on method of use.

That new class would be “chest-fired weapons”. If you look at where I index the toe of the butt on a rifle, it’s medial from my nipple even. We’re talking about 6-7” away from the deltoid.

In my State, you can’t even go to the range anymore without running into multiple people with suppressors.

Thousands of people have pistols with stabilizing braces, and those types of AR15s and other pistol designs are on the shelves of major sporting goods stores. At least they were before the buying frenzy.

Boston field office is the kid doing its own thing in this matter.

They regulate based on design not method of use, or at least they should according to the original Firearms Act text and how our legal system is supposed to work. But the ATF's power is just one example of how federal agencies run by career unelected officials overstep, along with the EPA, IRS, etc.

I'll step out here since I made an anylitical decision to avoid having much skin in this particular game.

[Wethepeople]

"Ha!"

Be dismissive if you like. Having first hand knowledge of how political ATF can be, I assure you, stuff like that happens in our "institutions."
Twenty years ago, I saw a LGS harrassed out of business for no other reason that they didn't like the line of Palladin Press books the owner carried. Actually worse than harrassment. Offered an arrested perp a deal in exchange for perjuring himself to bust the LGS owner. Thankfully, the perps attorney informed the LGS owner the deal his client was offered. LGS owner closed down his business after being informed he was going to be setup. I don't blame him.

[StoneHendge]

"Ha!"

Be dismissive if you like. Having first hand knowledge of how political ATF can be, I assure you, stuff like that happens in our "institutions."
Twenty years ago, I saw a LGS harrassed out of business for no other reason that they didn't like the line of Palladin Press books the owner carried. Actually worse than harrassment. Offered an arrested perp a deal in exchange for perjuring himself to bust the LGS owner. Thankfully, the perps attorney informed the LGS owner the deal his client was offered. LGS owner closed down his business after being informed he was going to be setup. I don't blame him.

I'm being dismissive of this particular argument because I personally saw something like this coming exactly for the reasons you state, and I didn't want to risk everything else in my safe. I can stick around if you want and discuss things like the intent of the law and the spirit of the law if you like

As to how political the ATF or any other government agencies are, well, that's politics and that's banned from discussion here.

[grayfox]

Here is a link to the response sent to the ATF by Q's attorney.

[FONT=&amp]https://www.liveqordie.com/wp-content/up...ame=iossmf

Seems the Boston ATF has really put the cart in front of the horse and stepped in the muffin.

Q doesn't seem willing to just roll over on this...[/FONT]

excellent find, thanks for posting. First thing that came to my mind when reading this (besides the minor humorous jabs at atf) was a very real violation of the APA. I’ve been involved with APA in other disciplines, it’s a very real dagger to overturn arbitrary acts of ‘crats. Not a very 2A friendly federal district, but it would first go to a fed district ct in NH where’re Q is located, prob get an injunction. Expensive however...

[Wethepeople]

Stonehenge, I understand your position as stated and haven't commented on it one way or another.

My first comment you quoted wasn't directed at you. I merely stated an opinion as to a possible motive for why ATF may have pulled the rug out from Q LLC's product. I've seen them do something like that before as I described. I probably should have used the term procedurally deceptive or criminal, instead of political. But I have no doubt there are political hacks in their organization too. I know political debate here is not allowed. Far as I know, the words politics or political are not disallowed. Perhaps I'm wrong on that impression, that's for the mods to decide.

Frankly, I understand your hesitance based on past behaviors of the ATF. I have no issue with your personal choice. I considered not building a pistol for the very same reason.

I think the SBA/ATF letters were meant to clarify the intent and spirit of the law and that's what I chose to follow.
You made your choice, I made mine. I don't see that we disagree much at all.

[Double Naught Spy]

Seems the Boston ATF has really put the cart in front of the horse and stepped in the muffin.

Q doesn't seem willing to just roll over on this...

Excellent on Q. However, they have a lot to lose in the deal, so I am not surprised and certainly glad they are fighting. They are capitulating to a certain extent, maybe in good faith, in trying to derive solutions that would not push the company into bankruptcy such as retrofitting braces that have been approved by the ATF. Section III was interesting in that Q is now submitting other weapons for ATF approval to make sure they are in compliance.

The ATF has nothing to lose. Did they step in the muffin? Maybe, but they are part of the federal government. It isn't like the ATF is going to jail or out of business over this. Even if Q were to sue for damages and win, the ATF isn't going away. Nobody will cut their power. Despite the protestations of Q on how the ATF handled the matter, Q is still very much in limbo.

[Fess]

Many people have been expecting something like this to happen. The various ATF letters concerning arm braces are poorly written and vague. The issue facing Q is not really surprising if you look closely at the ATF letter to SB Tactical in March 2017. Here is a link: https://www.sb-tactical.com/resources/ba...inion-use/

It made a few important points that have been generally ignored. The determination is for a brace "...designed, intended and marketed for use only to shoot from the arm..." Many current braces have been marketed, or at least widely demonstrated, as shoulder stocks. A number of the newer, more stock-like braces also are not optimized for use as forearm braces. The foam on the unit evaluated was soft and floppy to easily conform to the shape of the shooters forearm. I have seen numerous complaints from owners about its use as a shoulder stock. As it turns out, that is the point.

The ATF noted that the particular pistol/brace that they evaluated was not comfortable to shoot from the shoulder. That appears to be something they consider pertinent to demonstrating "intent". The key sentence is: "With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not "make" a short-barreled rifle because in the configuration as submitted to and approved by the FATD, it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder."

A while back I joked that attorneys would probably start telling braced-pistol owners to yell "OUCH" each time they shoot them from the shoulder.

[StoneHendge]

A while back I joked that attorneys would probably start telling braced-pistol owners to yell "OUCH" each time they shoot them from the shoulder.

When I had a Grendel pistol, I yelled "OUCH" whenever I looked at the groups I shot utilizing the brace in the manner it was designed for. Folks here talk about sub Minute of Angle groups at 100 yards. I was happy with sub Minute of Barn.

[AZHTfreak]

Just read the news and came here to respond. LRRP52 pretty much covered all the bases. Not just the ATF, but the entire Federal Government has become a giant leviathon of enormous proportions. Being a life long small government advocate, I have given up hope we will ever achieve that, at least in my lifetime.
I support the repeal of all gun laws to pre 1934. Largely a result of the Bonus Army of WW1 Veterans who marched on DC in 1932. Dishonest historians repeat over and over again, the 1934 GCA was a result of 1920s mobster style criminals. Somethings never change. The same dishonest arguements fuel the gun debate today, turning law abiding gun owners into criminals.
I beleive the Honey Badger is just the beginning of the effort to get all AR pistols.

Doh, really...? Thus why I've always stuck with the "painful original shockwave braces", though I'm pretty sure it'll be a be a distinction without a difference from the ATF's perspective...

[LRRPF52]

So far, this is limited to Q and has received a massive backlash from within the industry and Congress within a 3 month period of the last Congressional reprimand.

The September 29th, 2020 Congressional letter described the ATF’s behavior as in terrorem, so there is a significant response from those who have oversight authority over ATF. These Congressmen previously sent a letter telling the ATF to cease this type of behavior back on June 16th, 2020, so these younger Congressmen are just getting familiar what type of illegal tactics the ATF has been using against people throughout their odorous history.

The beauty of the pistol stabilizing brace and pistol AR-15s becoming so common is that any typical jack-booted actions the ATF tries to take will affect millions of people now, who all start lighting up their representatives’ and the White House emails with rants and complaints about this out-of-control, unconstitutional Federal agency (that is specifically tasked with violating the Bill of Rights).

The ATF has no justifiable ground to stand on, especially since they issued determination letters for SB Tactical’s designs, received pistol Federal Excise Taxes (10% of sales) and correctly logged all of Q’s Honey Badger Pistols as “pistols". Now they will have to explain why they have contradicted themselves and their own determination letters, why they refuse to establish a published industry standard, and why they refuse to entertain any remedies to unspecified technical characteristics they refuse to identify, while insisting on continuing the Stalinist tactics of, “Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.”

Not only is their very existence an offense to freedom-loving people, but their conduct is brazen in its contrast to how US law and due process are to be executed. For those of us who have studied their sordid conduct for the past several decades, it comes as no surprise. For those just realizing what an offense they are to our way of life, they are shocked by the conduct they are witnessing in real-time. Sadly, this is actually tame compared to what they’ve done to many FFLs, manufacturers, and whistleblowers from within their own ranks in the past. You can read about that on CleanUpATF.org.

[Roland]

As someone with rheumatoid arthritis I understood that pistol braces were designed to assist those with disabilities. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires business and all government agencies to make reasonable accommodations to those individuals with disabilities. It appears that the ATF hates those of us with disabilities.

[LRRPF52]

Well, Boston field office and ATF just were ordered to rescind their cease and desist letter.

They say it’s only for 60 days though.

ATF issues suspension of their cease and desist against Q.

The letter says the 60-day stay is to allow the Department of Justice to assess the applicability of National Firearms Act regulations to the Q’s Honey Badger pistol. Some will see this as a positive development. Maybe the regulatory giant is having second thoughts and the suspension gives them time to reassess.

A more cynical view would be the ATF has chosen to punt the decision until after the election to see which way the political winds are blowing when the 60 days are up in December.

If Trump is re-elected, the ATF might be persuaded of the arbitrary and capricious nature of their claim that the Honey Badger pistol is a short-barrel rifle and drop the matter. If Biden wins, they may decide that they were right all along in determining that the Honey Bader is somehow the equivalent of a SBR.

The ATF could then use their opaque, non-existent, non-standards which they refuse to explain or publish against other AR pistol/arm brace combinations, magically deeming them to be NFA items, too.

Have you voted yet?

[AZHTfreak]

More potentially bad news. The unelected burocráticos in ATF FATD are possibly (probably) reclassifying ALL AR pistols to SBR or AOW primarily based on weight and subjective determination of single-handed operation... Setting the table should the Meatsack and Bolshevek get elected IMHO.

https://comms.wiley.law/8/3583/october-2...EfEWjKs_Ac