Military switching to "green" bullets (Military.com)

[Trooper]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/24/gettin...n-bullets/

Question on how this effects the Grendel. I assume that both the 5.56 and 7.62 will be lighter than those with lead.


http://www.military1.com/newsletters/943...lid=404119

What is with the assumption that any military bullet will be "ball"? If the standard is set to use a BC shaped bullet, why would the military go against that standard?

[Michael]

Nothing new, has been a push for the last several years. I would imagine that the new ammo would weigh the same as the current ball, as the SOST does
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010...5-56-ammo/ While not a green bullet, is still a re-design based on twist of service rifles, optics, and what works best in the rifles.

As to whether it will be 'Ball' ammo, it depends on how they name the new rounds and ensure they are in compliance with international treaties and laws. Calling rounds 'Open Tip Match' instead of 'Hollow Points' seems to work.

[Trooper]

The concerns was that making the core out of copper would make the rounds too expensive. Wonder why not steel?

The other question would be if the 6.5 Grendel would not be acceptable then what would be acceptable? It is clear that we are not going back to the 7.62x51 and that the 5.56x45 is just too light for many missions. While I think that the 6.5mm would be the ideal caliber, some might see that something closer to 7mm would be better. The question is how to get the maximum BC and sectional density so that the round puts more energy down range (.30 caliber rounds lose too much).

Then is what the dimenisions of the case should be. It appears that it should be close to 10.7mm in diameter. And no shorter than 40mm but not much longer than 45mm.

[stanc]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/24/gettin...n-bullets/

Question on how this effects the Grendel. I assume that both the 5.56 and 7.62 will be lighter than those with lead.

Wrong assumption. The 5.56 M855A1 is 62gr, same as lead core M855. Presumably 7.62 M80A1 will weigh circa 147gr, like lead core M80.

The effect on 6.5 Grendel is that a military loading (for the US Army) would need the same type bullet construction.

What is with the assumption that any military bullet will be "ball"? If the standard is set to use a BC shaped bullet, why would the military go against that standard?

"Ball" is the nomenclature traditionally given to the standard, general purpose, general issue load. It dates back to when a round (lead) ball was used in muskets and rifles.

What is a "BC shaped bullet" and who would set that standard?

[stanc]

The concerns was that making the core out of copper would make the rounds too expensive. Wonder why not steel?

Since steel has lower density than copper, using a steel slug would make the bullet longer, and thereby eat up more powder space.

The other question would be if the 6.5 Grendel would not be acceptable then what would be acceptable?

That's the $64,000,000 question. Nobody knows for sure.

It is clear that we are not going back to the 7.62x51 and that the 5.56x45 is just too light for many missions. While I think that the 6.5mm would be the ideal caliber, some might see that something closer to 7mm would be better.

Then is what the dimenisions of the case should be. It appears that it should be close to 10.7mm in diameter. And no shorter than 40mm but not much longer than 45mm.

Bullet and case dimensions should be whatever they need to be to achieve the goal. So far, IMO there is insufficient test data publicly available to make a rational choice of bullet caliber and weight.

[sneaky one]

stanc-
The 855A1 tip is Steel-for better penetration -thru barriers & 4 layers of canvas-denim & such.
The Afganies can tolerate the heat, so they wear that , as to win the war...
It is their BP vest, so to speak. The mission is close range killing-penetration power with the new pill.
BC's don't mean much at 30 ft. or 30-yds. Yet-== The pill works fine out to 300 y.



The Grendel rounds would be more effective , as compared to 5.56. Let's say a steel tip was made for a 115-120 fragmenting unit?
It would rock the military brass, they may finally see the light? I am in the -build a few of my own mode here---I'll report back when they are good to go/. It seems like the right direction to go, on this 6.5 pill
S1

[stanc]

The Grendel rounds would be more effective , as compared to 5.56. Let's say a steel tip was made for a 115-120 fragmenting unit?

Put a steel tip in a Hornady GMX, I'd guesstimate circa 110 grains.

It would rock the military brass, they may finally see the light? I am in the -build a few of my own mode here---I'll report back when they are good to go/.

Looking forward to it!

[stanc]

The Grendel rounds would be more effective , as compared to 5.56. Let's say a steel tip was made for a 115-120 fragmenting unit?
It would rock the military brass, they may finally see the light? I am in the -build a few of my own mode here---I'll report back when they are good to go/. It seems like the right direction to go, on this 6.5 pill

Hey, Sneaky... How goes it with this idea?

[sneaky one]

Sorry Stan, been too busy on a hundred other projects-banging federals gong all the time thru Blade, etc. My old parents take up my wknds., after the car crash, and the fallout...
I never quit-I will re-focus this spring on this.

How have you been? Good to see you posting.
Any free time has been devoted to the GMX-lite for the Grrr,,, & working up loads for shorty 40=the 7.62x40WT. Check my last album.
Take care, stay in touch. I will always keep you updated. Dan

[stanc]

Hi, Dan. Sorry to hear about your parents. Hoping for the best there.

I'm stuck in a low budget, nursing home. My days are spent exercising, doing forum discussions, and watching TV.

Doesn't look like a Grendel is in my future, darn it. That's really annoying, since the Wolf FMJ ammo will be here in December...

Be warned: What they don't tell you about "the Golden Years" is that they're made of fool's gold.

[maverick5582]

And I thought that "the Golden Years" just meant that you piss a lot.

[stanc]

The US Army's "green" bullets -- the exposed penetrator, 5.56mm M855A1 and 7.62mm M80A1 rounds -- are unique to this country. Other armies have elected to stay with traditional FMJ configuration in developing lead-free projectiles. One of these is the 5.56mm BNT 4 HP (Ball, Non-Toxic 4 High-Performance) loading made for the Norwegian military by Nammo.

Below, l. to r.: 77gr SMK; 62gr BNT 4 HP; 62gr M855


Below, 62gr BNT 4 HP sectioned, showing 2-piece steel core (soft steel slug, hard steel tip)


Should anyone wish to acquire some of the Nammo lead-free ammo, it is currently available as "Carl Gustaf NATO 5.56X45/.223 62grn" from http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?i...c000rd+Can

Buyer Beware: Judging by headstamp dates, this surplus ammo is the first iteration that reportedly caused some health issues when fired in HK416 rifles in indoor ranges. It is almost certainly NOT the new and improved Mk2 version.

Prospective purchasers may also wish to read the following arfcom thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=649168

[stanc]

Found on the MG&A forum:

Here is is full court ruling regarding M885A1

In the United States Court of Federal Claims - U.S. Court Of Federal ...
https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/sh...cv0084-112 ...

Liberty Ammunition, a small business in Florida, won a $15.6 million judgment against the Army in a patent infringement lawsuit Dec. 19. The company alleged that the service passed on proprietary data and specifications for its lead-free copper-core, steel-tipped bullet technology to other vendors.

In addition to the judgment, the U.S. Court of Federal Claims ordered the Army to pay the Florida-based company a royalty of 1.4 cents for every lead-free bullet it purchases until the company’s patent expires in 2027.

At issue is the Army’s enhanced performance round known as the M855A1.

[Variable]

Found on the MG&A forum:

I'd like to be getting those checks!

[BluntForceTrauma]

1.4¢ x 1 billion rounds, for example, is $14,000,000. Is my math right? Not a bad chunk of change.

[stanc]

Gel tests of M855A1 (top) vs Mk318 (bottom).



http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2879

[Variable]

Dang. 7" neck on the M855A1??? Yeeesh. If that's consistent and not just a fluke...... I no likey. :eek:

[stanc]

[stanc]

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/yo...5a1-round/

[LRRPF52]

They'll need Gen 3 PMAGs to support that.

I just saw a recent video where M855A1 even fired from an SBR penetrated hard armor and caused devastating damage on the clay mannequin torso behind it.

There are other videos of it from SBRs penetrating plates and water jugs behind them. It's fast.