PDW trunk gun quest

[stanc]

I'm not predicting bad stuff is gonna happen. But I know more and more people who are getting worried. Of course, there have always been folks like that.

Very true. I recall reading a quote from some ancient Greek, I think it was, who lamented how the world was going to Hell...and that was over two thousand years ago!

Of course, next year is 2012, when EVERYTHING is supposed to end... :eek:

[pinzgauer]

What was wrong with the M61A1 Vulcan...

Nothing an Avenger can't fix:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]318[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]319[/ATTACH]

[Variable]

Very true. I recall reading a quote from some ancient Greek, I think it was, who lamented how the world was going to Hell...and that was over two thousand years ago!

Of course, next year is 2012, when EVERYTHING is supposed to end... :eek:

Oh, I don't think the world is going to end, I just think our level of comfort in it is dangerously nearing a dramatic change. I'm not just talking about the debt limit drama or any particular one of many minor or major factors, it's when they are combined things can happen. The totality of our current circumstances just seem to be screaming serious lifestyle downgrade ahead, with periods of potential strife and a 30% chance of misery.LOL

[Variable]

Why? D'ya think you're going to get out of life alive?

You're too young to be getting gloomier and doomier. Maybe you'd be in a better state of mind if you spent more time shooting, and less time worrying about the end of the world?

Call it a response to the increased responsibility of family.:p I have no notions of escaping alive, but I do need to live as long as I can to help do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of my progeny. I would prefer they thrive, and do so in freedom.

When it was just me, I didn't worry nearly so much.

[Variable]

Not such a good idea to be discussing personal preperations in a public forum that I'm sure is closely monitored. No tinfoil hat here. After seeing what DOJ and BATF have put together in the recent past, I'd rather hold my cards close to my chest and Stack my own deck.

Quite the contrary, dear Sir. No one here is actively advocating the violent overthrow of the Federal Govt. Nor are they discussing anything else illegal. As a FLEO, I'm fairly fluent in that. I work for a very large Federal Law Enforcement Agency (not allowed to publicly divulge which one-- liability), and no one here has ever said anything even remotely wrong to my recollection. I'm also not appointed to monitor anyone either.LOL There is a huge difference between giving one's opinion and seriously advocating violence against our elected govt. in a public forum. It's not hard to keep it between the lines at all.

Heck even FEMA (shudder, followed by no comment...) is trying to encourage people to prepare for potential future calamity.http://www.fema.gov/areyouready/

Heck, since the grasshoppers won't listen, they've even stooped to using "Zombies" in an effort to market a preparedness mindset. http://blog.fema.gov/2011/05/from-cdc-pr...ombie.html




Now if you mean that you want to practice good OPSEC about your own personal preps to keep them from being compromised by those who would seek to rob you--- then I think you certainly have a good point. We should always practice at least some modicum of that.

As for me breaking OPSEC on guns? I don't give out too much useful personal info for those private individuals who might seek to rob me. As for the .gov??? I've filed so many form 1's and form 3's with the ATF for registration of my own weapons that I hardly care what they know about me. They already know I have a pile of legal weapons, so what's left for me to hide?LOL Between that and my occupation I pretty much just presume that every single thing I say or do is subject to possible scrutiny and comport myself appropriately with that in mind. I already freed my mind, so my @$$ just followed...

[Variable]

If you are seriously worried about glass penetration and still having enough bullet on the back side to do the necessary damage, you can't go wrong in .223 with the 60 gr. Nosler partion. Even in the 10.5 inch guns they hold together well and have little or no deviation at less than 30 deg. angle on the windshield. I was involved in the testing of every commercially loaded 223 we could get our hands on and it beat all hands down including the Military steel penetrator. Most fragmented so badly that penetration in geletin was minimal. The Nosler retained 90+% of its mass and penetration was 10 or more inches.

I wish we had some glass data on the Wolf 120 MPT and the Hornady 123's out of the Grendel. I guess I should load up the 120 Barne's bullets, but I'm poor and lazy, so I'd rather sit on my current stash if they were sufficient.

[stanc]

Heck even FEMA (shudder, followed by no comment...) is trying to encourage people to prepare for potential future calamity.

Heck, since the grasshoppers won't listen, they've even stooped to using "Zombies" in an effort to market a preparedness mindset.

LOL -- Now, that is funny. It looks like somebody in the CDC has been reading gun forums.

Yours truly,
Grasshopper

(Actually, it's not so much that I'm a grasshopper, as it is I'm too old to care.)

[stanc]

I wish we had some glass data on the Wolf 120 MPT and the Hornady 123's out of the Grendel. I guess I should load up the 120 Barne's bullets, but I'm poor and lazy, so I'd rather sit on my current stash if they were sufficient.

Well, it isn't really data, but here's what Hornady's LE site says about the .308 155gr A-MAX:

"The 155 grain A-MAX...bullet penetrates glass with minimal deflection and exhibits retained expansion and fragmentation characteristics."

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_d...D=79&pID=2

If that statement can be trusted, then it's likely that the .264 123gr A-MAX would behave similarly.

But, I'm with you. I'd like to see some actual test results.

[sloan]

The boys an i did some non scienctfical testing on wind shields,an110 barnes 29.5 tac screams through the ones we shot at,the 110 bends when it hit the back door jam,we shot at least 30 rounds,dam things are hard to stop.We call these go ahead an get behind your car,more schrapnel involved,we like them....sloan

[LR1955]

I've heard this same theme over and over. Buy a 5.56, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39, etc. for SHTF because they are very common rounds. But I must respectfully disagree. I am thoroughly of the belief that if indeed the S does HTF, you had better have what you need with you or stored away at your "compound" when it does. Case in point: as of November 5, 2008, which rounds could NOT be found at Walmart, or pretty much anywhere? And that wasn't even SHTF (well, I suppose that depends on your perspective). I couldn't even find .22 LR at Walmart for over a year. At least in bulk.

IMO, the best reason for choosing the common rounds is because you can stock up on them RIGHT NOW at a reasonable price.

One good reason to choose the Grendel for a SHTF round is: 1) To have a round that fits in the AR and is good up close and out to at least 500 yards. 2) One can stock up on inexpensive 7.62x39 which can be necked down to work in a Grendel if necessary. Yes, even steel cased ammo.

And IF one was far from home when the SHTF and didn't take plenty of ammo, they would want a rifle chambered in a round that is fairly common, but which everyone and their sister isn't going to be running out to buy. Don't know, maybe .270 Win or 7-08?

I'm not predicting bad stuff is gonna happen. But I know more and more people who are getting worried. And they are arming themselves and stocking up on basic necessities. Of course, there have always been folks like that. So, who knows?

Will

Will / Guys:

In 2008 we could not get Grendel ammunition anywhere. Period. Not from AA, not from Midway -- no where.

Right now when the MPT runs out it may be months to a year before you see any more due to production runs and importation.

And stalking up on Hornady or AA ammo is OK providing you are wealthy. But that leaves the real question.

You would actually trust your life to a Grendel with its CP magazines? How fast are you at replacing a bolt when you shear a lug? Many years around the issued 5.56 and I have seen one bolt lug shear. I have owned Grendels for six years and have six or eight bolts sitting on a shelf with sheared lugs. Both 7.62 and Grendel bolts. And no CP magazine I have owned have I been able to trust that it will function. Not the 10 round, 17 round, or 28 round.

OTOH, with every 5.56 I also own, I just don't seem to have function problems and so far I haven't sheared any bolt lugs. I have used magazines dating back to the 1960's, magazines that Army claimed to be bad, magazines made by the lowest bidder, no name magazines, Wolf ammo, issued ammo, hand loaded ammo, mixed lots of ammo, bullets of different lengths and designs. All fired through chambers ranging from (real) match chambers on Match rifles through blasting chambers on mid range quality blasting carbines. Can't remember the last time I had a problem with function.

No big deal.

LR55

[steel89]

[quote=Variable]Quite the contrary, dear Sir. No one here is actively advocating the violent overthrow of the Federal Govt. Nor are they discussing anything else illegal.

Of course no one is discussing anything advocating a violent overthrow of our government or anything currently illegal. Things change, and what I see and those who are not blind to what is happening see, is that a play is being made to dramatically change the balance of power in this country and our current freedoms are a threat to that shift. If you could ask the dissidents in China, Syria, Iran and Venezuela if giving up personal information or speaking out publicly is a good idea, I think you would find out quickly how many ways information can be used against you. I experianced their fears first hand in Chile a long time ago.
All I'm saying is...
I've found as a well trained and deeply experianced professional, in the art of observation and LE, to trust my instincts. Surely you understand that aspect.
No I don't think what we are discussing is a threat to our personal OPSEC, now, with our Constitutional protections in place. My instincts are tempered but are saying it's time to get the sun at your back quietly dig in.

[LRRPF52]

Even if out "most-trusted" representatives in D.C. grow morals over night, and actually constrain themselves to our Nation's laws, we still have a simmering surge of violent criminal enterprises on the rise throughout the country, as they use our Interstate Highway system to traffic their products. If you were to find yourself a target for a car-jacking by highly-motivated and determined criminals with years of experience, a good car gun PDW would be the best thing you could have to stand a chance in an unavoidable gunfight.

Analyzing the dash cam videos of LEO's who have been gunned-down by narco-traffickers makes you realize right away that these are very decisive individuals who don't hesitate to unleash a barrage of fire on anyone who gets in their way. If they are driving or riding in a vehicle loaded out with large volumes of narcotics and cash, they are rarely alone, and carry firearms that are meant to win the fight with other armed threats.

They often have 1911's chambered in .38 Super, which is legal in Mexico since it's not a military cartridge, or have shown a preference over the past decade leaning more and more towards the FN 5.7 pistols with 20rd mags, which are compact, lightweight, and most LEO's will have to do a mag change before the thugs will...if only pistols are involved.

While these guys are black-market businessmen, they usually prefer to maintain a low profile and just drive the routes, with no intention of making contact with potential intercepts. If things get nasty, and they have been forced to ditch their vehicle, I can see a lot of scenarios where they would resort to a hasty car-jacking after burning down our Peace Officers, placing any of us in potential danger.

This is why I AM an advocate of the car-gun PDW, and I have been thinking of a SBR Mini-14 folder for that purpose. A 10" Suppressed AR would be another great choice. I do understand the likelihood of actually needing one is pretty low among civvies where I live, and it introduces the potential for theft more than anything, so these pros and cons need to be weighed when deciding on whether to go the car gun PDW route or not. If I was still living in some of the other major cities I have lived in, it would be a much higher priority I think, but would be much more difficult or impossible to legally-obtain due to State laws in most of those areas.

For example, if you live in California, New York, or Chicago, the elected officials there don't recognize your right to maintain your life while you are out and about conducting your normal activities day-to-day, while violent criminals will use whatever weaponry they can obtain to protect themselves, or violate others. If you did dare to discreetly bear arms as the Constitution implies, and were forced to protect yourself and family from imminent death, rape, or bodily harm, you would be prosecuted as a criminal by the local DA...if you actually prevailed in the violent encounter.

In my State, the opposite is true, which is really one of the top 2 reasons I live here. Freedom isn't just an idea to those who taste it daily...and I truly love and cherish freedom, believe me I do.

[BjornF16]

Car gun PDW: What about an AR based pistol...say 7" or 10" barrel?...or what about a Sig 556 with barrel cut down for SBR?...I've heard Ruger isn't very accomodating with their modified rifles.

I've also handled a FNH FS2000. It's pricey but felt good ergonomically (didn't shoot it though).

[Clod Stomper]

Will / Guys:

In 2008 we could not get Grendel ammunition anywhere. Period. Not from AA, not from Midway -- no where.

Right now when the MPT runs out it may be months to a year before you see any more due to production runs and importation.

And stalking up on Hornady or AA ammo is OK providing you are wealthy. But that leaves the real question.

You would actually trust your life to a Grendel with its CP magazines? How fast are you at replacing a bolt when you shear a lug? Many years around the issued 5.56 and I have seen one bolt lug shear. I have owned Grendels for six years and have six or eight bolts sitting on a shelf with sheared lugs. Both 7.62 and Grendel bolts. And no CP magazine I have owned have I been able to trust that it will function. Not the 10 round, 17 round, or 28 round.

OTOH, with every 5.56 I also own, I just don't seem to have function problems and so far I haven't sheared any bolt lugs. I have used magazines dating back to the 1960's, magazines that Army claimed to be bad, magazines made by the lowest bidder, no name magazines, Wolf ammo, issued ammo, hand loaded ammo, mixed lots of ammo, bullets of different lengths and designs. All fired through chambers ranging from (real) match chambers on Match rifles through blasting chambers on mid range quality blasting carbines. Can't remember the last time I had a problem with function.

No big deal.

LR55

LR55,

Point very well taken. Allow me to further clarify. I fully do not expect to find anything useful in a retail establishment in an "emergency" situation unless I'm the first in line. That's why I recommend stocking up as one is able. So it depends on a person's personal financial situation whether they want a common military round (cheap) or a less common, more expensive round, such as .30-30, .270, .260, whatever.

The bolt and mag situation with the Grendel has concerned me. I've hoped for better mags, but those haven't surfaced yet. I can change a bolt pretty fast when not under stress, but I really don't want to have to do that. Someday, I hope to upgrade to the AR Performance bolts and extensions when I can afford it. But I'm not there yet, either.

So, being a belt and suspenders sort of person (figuratively), I recommend having barrels or rifles in each of the common rounds, with enough ammo and replacement parts for each.

I also am looking at the 6.5 PCC (still a wildcat, but barrels are available from Black Hole Weaponry) as a potential alternative to the Grendel. It solves the mag and bolt problem. I already have plenty of cases and bullets. The downside is less velocity than the Grendel, but still better ballistics than the 5.56. I just really, really like the 6.5 bullet diameter, so I can't completely give up on it.

Steel89, I also agree with you about OPSEC. However, I'm banking on being a very low-priority target to the JBTs. As far as the common street punks? Well...

Stay safe,

Will

[stanc]

Possibly the worst SHTF scenario is an infestation of zombies. :eek:

I discovered today that a person can build an AR-15 with a lower receiver designed specifically to deal with this threat.

[Variable]

Possibly the worst SHTF scenario is an infestation of zombies. :eek:

I discovered today that a person can build an AR-15 with a lower receiver designed specifically to deal with this threat.

[SIZE="5"]FEMA and the CDC approve of this message....[/SIZE]







Yeah right, just kidding!!!LOL

[Variable]

My replies are below. I'm not trying to antagonize or belittle you, heck I don't even entirely disagree with you. I just don't see anyone here having anything to worry about at the level we currently discuss things.

Things change, and what I see and those who are not blind to what is happening see, is that a play is being made to dramatically change the balance of power in this country and our current freedoms are a threat to that shift.

To a certain degree I agree with you on that point, but the only thing that can be done about it at this point in time is to shine the light on what they are doing wherever possible and motivate others to become involved politically to stop it. Kinda that whole Tea Party thing that is going on right now as we speak... Just rolling over and not discussing it certainly won't make it go away. Regardless of country. Silence and darkness are exactly the environmental conditions within which they thrive.

If you could ask the dissidents in China, Syria, Iran and Venezuela if giving up personal information or speaking out publicly is a good idea, I think you would find out quickly how many ways information can be used against you. I experianced their fears first hand in Chile a long time ago.

On that point you'd be in trouble with the rest of us by simply being registered and posting here-- if they were holding such a tight standard. Are you an NRA member?(don't feel obligated to answer!), if so: then you are already a card carrying member of a far more dangerous organization with many times more political involvement than the Grendel board. They'd need to round up 4 million card carrying members before they had to worry if they'd missed any here for mearly discussing how we think things are headed down the crapper.


They are welcome to "list" me as they like, they already have my photographs, finger prints, DNA, signatures, video, etc., etc., etc. What more could "they" want? :confused:

All I'm saying is...
I've found as a well trained and deeply experianced professional, in the art of observation and LE, to trust my instincts. Surely you understand that aspect.
No I don't think what we are discussing is a threat to our personal OPSEC, now, with our Constitutional protections in place. My instincts are tempered but are saying it's time to get the sun at your back quietly dig in.

Any hypothetical future political entity so bent on tracking down possible dissidents (for political thought in conjunction/proximity to a gun board) would spend so much time backcrawling the great web cache that we'd die of natural causes first. Heck, just Arfcom alone would take at least a hundred years to unwind.

Could the U.S. have a dark political future ahead? You betcha, but only if we don't speak out truthfully and openly while educating others and actively participating in the legal political venues we still have currently open to us (as so brilliantly provided to us by the astoundingly prescient founding fathers our Creator saw fit to bless this nation with!!!!).

Only then, and IF that should fail, would we be ultimately forced to resort to our 2nd ammendment rights (as also so brilliantly provided by those wise old fellas!).

My Oath(s) were all sworn to uphold and protect the U.S. Constitution. I take them very seriously. No dictators or grand imperial leaders for me.

[steel89]

Philosophically, I know we are all on the same page. Seeing the same darkness approaching, some will shine a light outward, some will surround themselves with light and some of us will blend into the darkness. Goals may be the same just the approaches to getting through are different. I respect your views and opinions, and take it all in.

PDW trunk guns are without a doubt indispensible. Their number and design will be dictated by our own personal environments (SHTF or not). Those same 'trunk guns' will probably become a large part of any future defensive position or holding a perimeter position. So the Gren tactical fits my bill, given the proper equipping. Just one piece of the survival puzzle, but critical.

[txgunslinger]

so you say you want an AR that is good for personal defense and will go through a barrier, in this case I can think of nothing better than the .50 beowulf, I know it may seem a little overkill, but I see it like this, there is a big difference between self defense and hunting, its not like your trying to save the meat of a perpatrator. Ammo may not be real easy to get but you should be able to buy or reload plenty for your needs. If I were buying or building an AR for personal defense this would be my go- to caliber, but that is just me. If I am protector me and or my family I want a one shot stop.

[bwaites]

so you say you want an AR that is good for personal defense and will go through a barrier, in this case I can think of nothing better than the .50 beowulf, I know it may seem a little overkill, but I see it like this, there is a big difference between self defense and hunting, its not like your trying to save the meat of a perpatrator. Ammo may not be real easy to get but you should be able to buy or reload plenty for your needs. If I were buying or building an AR for personal defense this would be my go- to caliber, but that is just me. If I am protector me and or my family I want a one shot stop.

Definitely a one shot stop, at least as much as can be expected. BUT....have to be careful with penetration!

Most of the Beowulf ammo will go right through any body, including a bear, at close range.