Grendel as a Universal Infantry Cartridge

[cory]

I don't give a crap about theoretical calculations for different powders. I'm only concerned with what has actually been achieved in reality with the Wolf ammo. If its pressure has been measured accurately as 50k psi, then it is not 10k psi lower than SAAMI spec.

Sometimes we should just leave the science to the scientists and the sensationalism to the journalist.

[stanc]

We already know the potential of the round from the current commercial loadings. That gives us enough info for its use as a Universal Infantry Cartridge.

I must disagree. With the notable exception of the US, NATO armies use FMJ ammo. Current commercial loadings have match or hunting bullets, not FMJ. Also, the bullet weights and BCs are, in most cases, significantly greater than can be expected of a 6.5mm ball projectile. As a result, they are useless for "apples vs apples" testing vs 5.56 and 7.62 ball ammo.

If indeed the Wolf ammo will arrive in the next year...I think that we should not gripe too much about non-optimal performance. If indeed its accuracy is in the 2-3 MOA range, it is going plenty fast for the distances in which it will be used. By that, I mean a 2-3 MOA round is would not be the first choice for high precision 600+ yard shooting anyway.

Of course it wouldn't. But, that's also true of 5.56 M855 and 7.62 M80. My question is, is the reported 2.4 MOA accuracy of the Wolf FMJ comparable to that of M855 and M80, or is it significantly worse?

The velocity of the supplied samples is lower than some (more expensive) commercial loadings. This simply means that there is plenty of potential left for a "New Improved" loading from Wolf.

That isn't the conclusion I reach from Bill's recent posts:

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post96000
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post96143

If all design and performance aspects of the current load have been balanced and optimized for use in self-loading rifles, it's hard to see how it could be improved.

[stanc]

Sometimes we should just leave the science to the scientists and the sensationalism to the journalist.

:confused: I don't know what that means. Are you saying that Fortier doesn't know how to properly use a chronograph?

[JASmith]

One of the challenges we have discussed has been our perceived imperative to use 'green' ammunition. This translates to copper and iron as the primary components of the bullet, making the bullets longer than would be the case with traditional lead-copper bullet construction. A military cartridge also needs to have a tracer round variant with the attendant increase in bullet length pyro compounds are usually less dense than iron.

This development may serve to both minimize the adverse bullet length impact and to keep ball and tracer rounds on the same trajectory because one outcome of this effort may be that all ball ammunition is tracer ammunition:

Defense Update.com -- One-Way Luminescent tracers

[Variable]

Hrmmm.... A glow in the dark sticker dot. Okaaayyyy.... Could be genius or a wild goose chase.

If I had some glow in the dark paint, I'd try it.LOL

They'd have to have a righteously glowing compound to be daylight visible...

[cory]

I think the daylight visibility requirement is kind of like the we want a rifle lighter than the 5.56 with greater terminal effects than the .308.

[JASmith]

India has announced a competition for a rifle that must be capable of converting from 5.56mm caliber to 7.62x39mm -

See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/03/indian-competition-replace-insas-begins/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-10-07&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter#sthash.1TN56ZeC.dpuf

[stanc]

[video=youtube;soY3gO_ZZrE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soY3gO_ZZrE[/video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soY3gO_ZZrE

[video=youtube;shAspKP5vn8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shAspKP5vn8[/video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shAspKP5vn8



I wonder how the Wolf 100gr FMJ ammo would fare in such tests?

[Variable]

Thanks Stan, those are some great vids.

I don't have the time or resources to do all that, but how about Wolf 100 FMJ through a cinderblock with a milk jug behind it?

I could start at 10.5" and go up if the 10.5" doesn't deliver?

If I had to guess, I think the 100 FMJ will hit the jug even out of my shorty.....

[stanc]

I don't have the time or resources to do all that, but how about Wolf 100 FMJ through a cinderblock with a milk jug behind it?

I could start at 10.5" and go up if the 10.5" doesn't deliver?

Sure, I'd love to see a vid of that.

[Variable]

I can't get it done today, but I'll get it soon.

[Variable]

Scratch that. Just did it.

Epic fail in both 10.5" and 14.5" barrels.

It punches through one side and makes a divot on the back. Splits it, but nothing out the back. Grrr...

I'll upload a failure vid later (not enough bandwidth here).

10.5" vid. http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn291...7mc7ru.mp4

14.5" vid. (Placeholder-- can't get the damned thing to load)






Maybe Appalachian blocks are just stronger. ;-)

[LRRPF52]

This is interesting that you guys are discussing this, because I did a cinder block test ignorant of this thread this weekend down at North Springs. I used the 123gr SST factory ammo from my 16" Grendel, at 50yds.

Before:



After



I have video of it through the spotting scope as well. I need to get it from my friend. It was more destructive than I thought it would be, especially for a polymer tipped hunting bullet that is designed to expand with a relatively soft nose. It went clean through and fragmented the block outwards. It was pretty impressive.

[danm]

This is interesting that you guys are discussing this, because I did a cinder block test ignorant of this thread this weekend down at North Springs. I used the 123gr SST factory ammo from my 16" Grendel, at 50yds.

Before:



After



I have video of it through the spotting scope as well. I need to get it from my friend. It was more destructive than I thought it would be, especially for a polymer tipped hunting bullet that is designed to expand with a relatively soft nose. It went clean through and fragmented the block outwards. It was pretty impressive.

Nice! I'm planning a range day for this Friday... I'll see if I can bring some blocks...

[stanc]

Scratch that. Just did it.

Epic fail in both 10.5" and 14.5" barrels.

It punches through one side and makes a divot on the back. Splits it, but nothing out the back. Grrr...

I share your disappointment, but in hindsight the result should perhaps have been expected.

In the video I posted, 7.62x39 lead-core 123gr FMJ @ ~2300 fps failed.

The 6.5 Grendel lead-core 100gr FMJ @ ~2200 fps (10.5") and ~2400 fps (14.5") has less energy and momentum than 7.62x39.

7.62 NATO 147gr FMJ punches through both sides of a block, with sufficient residual velocity to inflict serious, if not fatal, wounding.

Your demo gives cause to doubt that 6.5 Grendel is capable of replacing 7.62 NATO.

Unless a much better projectile can be developed, and launched at much higher velocity...

[Variable]

This is interesting that you guys are discussing this, because I did a cinder block test ignorant of this thread this weekend down at North Springs. I used the 123gr SST factory ammo from my 16" Grendel, at 50yds.

Before:



After



I have video of it through the spotting scope as well. I need to get it from my friend. It was more destructive than I thought it would be, especially for a polymer tipped hunting bullet that is designed to expand with a relatively soft nose. It went clean through and fragmented the block outwards. It was pretty impressive.

Cool.

I guess I need to try something other than Wolf.

Did the bullet penetrate the rear wall or did it just bust the block?

[Variable]

I share your disappointment, but in hindsight the result should perhaps have been expected.

In the video I posted, 7.62x39 lead-core 123gr FMJ @ ~2300 fps failed.

The 6.5 Grendel lead-core 100gr FMJ @ ~2200 fps (10.5") and ~2400 fps (14.5") has less energy and momentum than 7.62x39.

7.62 NATO 147gr FMJ punches through both sides of a block, with sufficient residual velocity to inflict serious, if not fatal, wounding.

Your demo gives cause to doubt that 6.5 Grendel is capable of replacing 7.62 NATO.

Unless a much better projectile can be developed, and launched at much higher velocity...

Yeah. I hate to reload, but maybe a 120gr. Norma FMJ? I know it's not anywhere near "green" though.

[LRRPF52]

It went through and through, as well as fragmenting the block, and I was at 50 yards.

There don't seem to be any problems with a 123gr SST from a 16" barrel at 2450fps. Comparing the 100gr Wolf to a 147gr M80 will leave the M80 coming out ahead, but for a DMC, I would take the Grendel over 7.62x51 without reservation, logistics considerations equaled for both.

I would be interested to see what a 12.5" Grendel does with the 123gr. I can just put blocks out farther I guess. This kind of testing isn't on the top of my list, but it is fun.

[stanc]

Yeah. I hate to reload, but maybe a 120gr. Norma FMJ? I know it's not anywhere near "green" though.

Well, there is no "green" 6.5mm military-type, ball projectile on the market. You can't test what you can't get.

Besides, IMO, a lead-free bullet would not be necessary or even desirable for testing penetration relative to lead-core 7.62mm M80 Ball.

That is, if one wants to determine what combination of 6.5mm FMJ bullet weight and velocity is needed to achieve comparable ability to punch through cinder blocks.

I think the Norma 120gr FMJ ought to be just fine for such test and evaluation.

And since BC is rather inconsequential at such short distance, the Lapua 100gr FMJ might also be an option to test a lighter bullet at higher velocity than can be had with the Norma projectile.

Understand, I'm not asking you to do such a T&E. You've already done more than I'd hoped for in this test of the Wolf FMJ vs a CMU. But, if you should proceed, I'll be very interested in the results.

[stanc]

It went through and through, as well as fragmenting the block, and I was at 50 yards.

There don't seem to be any problems with a 123gr SST from a 16" barrel at 2450fps.

Of course, there's the possibility that your block had different wall thickness, or was not as tough as Variable's.

This kind of testing isn't on the top of my list, but it is fun.

Yeah, I always enjoyed such testing. If I were able, I'd still be doing it.