The truth !

[stanc]

Alright, to clarify. What defines morality? If it's men, then you yourself see and point out clearly the folly of following man. The folly of following government, and letting government (man) define your roles in society. My point is that despite the sociological evolution, most of the moral principles the founders cornerstoned our country on were those that originated from a source that was greater than man.

Um, I'm pretty sure that the source of those moral principles was the Bible, which was written by men.

Slavery was part of the world, as was child marriage - even forced marriage, as was the social standing of women. It wasn't the founders that just thought to themselves "hey, lets marry children, enslave people, and belittle women". That too is a false narrative lacking objective historical clarity. Those were societal factions of the time. I'm not saying they were right, but it wasn't unusual or new to America either.

I realize that it wasn't unique to America. However, you were only talking about the supposedly high moral principles of the Founders, so that's what I addressed.

And, there were good men who fought all of those allowances from the beginning, because they believed morally that they were morally and socially wrong.

Certainly. There are always some who oppose the status quo. But, that doesn't change or diminish the fact that American society as a whole was considerably more immoral than today.

Stan, point out to me a place on earth founded by man that has led to more prosperity, more individual sovereignty, more liberty, more opportunity, more hope for mankind.

That was never a point of contention. I will note, though, that the main reason there is more liberty, prosperity, and opportunity for all Americans -- as opposed to only white males, as established by the Founders -- is because of the efforts of progressive activists and legislators.

And I fundamentally disagree with you. Your individual sovereignty makes you Lord and Master of your domain. Government be damned.

If we actually were sovereign individuals, we would not have to pay taxes to the government, and the government could not forcibly take our property via eminent domain laws.

That was a big part of what the founders tried to set up, but realized all too soon that man is inherently evil...

"Man is inherently evil." Such a self-loathing attitude is disturbing and dismaying. I do not consider myself or any of my family and friends to be "inherently evil."

There must be limits of power. But how much is too much? Who decides? I am just glad that the majority of these original limits were decided and won by the men who thought "Love thy neighbor as thyself" was a worthy thing to believe in and practice.

Which takes us back to the fact that the Founders obviously did not believe in and practice that. What they actually believed in was white supremacy and male dominance. What they practiced was: what we now call pedophilia; the suppression of white women; the enslavement of black people; and the conquest and killing of indigenous people in order to take their land.